WARNING: Anyone who is easily offended by matters related to money should avoid this thread altogether. This is a discussion thread on investments, trading and income generation matters. Remember this is a discussion not a lecture. It may contain counter points in advocacy, defence and passionate debate.
One cannot have a thread on cars without discussing brands eg BMW, Merc etc. So it is with investments. The important thing is not to mix endorsement with analysis. Anyone should declare commercial interest, if exist, when discussing specific products and service by brand. If the discussion is general eg when discussing CFD as a class of instruments then there is no need to do so.
The other extreme of not allowing any discussion on money matters is equally bad. This thread on investment and strategies is to provide options and alternatives. It is used to educate and help members to approach retirement funding in a more pragmatic manner. It could be immensely beneficial to participants but only if they possess enough knowledge to discriminate between different points of view.
Members can learn much from the experience and expertise from fellow members. In shielding one group, we do not want to deprive another.
Dr Larry Bates, publisher and editor of Monetary & Economic Review, CEO of Information Radio Network in Memphis wrote an insightful bulletin : Economic and Potential RISK, Your Assets, and Your options.
In an article titled Economic Risk – The Least Understood and Potentially Most Damaging Risk he wrote:
Quote ” Warren Buffet, the successful, world-famous investor, recently warned 20,000 shareholders of his Berkshire Hathaway company about the dangers (risks) of looming inflation. Buffet confirmed that he had increased his bet against the USD, because of concerns over the records of US trade deficit…….
On the risk of derivatives, Buffet said ” I would predict sometime in the next 10 years, we will have some very big problems (risks) accentuated by people’s activities with derivatives”. Buffet used the US$6 billion accounting scandal with mortgage financier, Freddie Mac, to make his case for the riks to the economy from derivatives. He noted they had “intelligent board members, were chartered by Congress, and monitored by a multitude of Wall Street analysts”- but even these supposedly “smart” people could not get a handle on the complexity and risks of this market.
Buffet listed other risks: ….including “Disgusting mutual fund managers playing with clients’ assets to earn higher commissions”
” People getting terrible results from consulting the experts (well meaning financial advisors and planners who do not understand economic fundamentals)” Unquote.
Dr Bates is a former member of the Tennessee House of Representatives and Chairman of its powerful Committee on Banking and Commerce. He is a former bank CEO and an internationally recognised expert on political systems and the Federal Reserve and how they affect the economy and your investments.
He is in Singapore and I have the privilege of meeting him and heard him speak the last two days.
I have attached a collection of quotes below from a number of sources relating to Spore’s investment in financial institutions. Some of the best sources are foreign press and commentaries. The reports overlap and difficult to reconcile in some details. But the overall picture is clear and consistent.
The worse sources are our own newspapers and parliamentary proceedings. You can read an entire report, quoting everybody and cannot understand what exactly is done. I wonder whether they are really as blur as they make out to be or is it just to clock time for their paycheck.
The point is Spore has made huge bets using derivative products linked to likes of options and convertible bonds. Only a small portion is directly linked to stocks and, even then, they are conditional. In other words, they all behave like derivative products in some form.
Even if you are blur, don’t bluff yourself. No savvy investor today plays only the underlying equity or stocks. They are all stuffed up and linked to derivatives. Many of the purchases are through hedge funds. The returns on these bets are based on high double digit risks, say, more than 15% expected returns. We are paid less than 5% for bets made on our behalf using our funds. You can bet that if the billions are lost, we will be left carrying the baby one way or another.
So it is academic. We all are betting indirectly our retirement on derivatives and paying a prince ransom to people doing so on our behalf. Win or lose. The only thing is most of us don’t know. That is why we can continue to count sheep instead of money in our nightmares. And call them sweet dreams.
——– Quotes ———————
“In less than a month’s time, GIC and Temasek have put a combined total of more than US$30 billion of Singaporeans’ wealth at risk GIC has bet $6.9 billion on Citibank and $9.7 billion on UBS, while Temasek has bet $4.4 billion on Merrill Lynch and $9.2 billion on Standard Chartered.”
“Temasek, which manages a global portfolio of about 110 billion dollars, invested 4.4 billion dollars in Merrill Lynch in December.”
“The Government of Singapore Investment Corporation (GIC), the city-state’s other investment vehicle, injected 10 billion dollars into Swiss-based investment bank UBS and 6.88 billion dollars in US banking giant Citigroup.”
“THE GOVERNMENT of Singapore Corporation (GIC) has invested US$6.88 billion (S$9.83 billion) for a slice of troubled banking giant Citi. GIC, which manages Singapore’s reserves, will invest the largest share of the US$12.5 billion in funds that Citi is raising from a group of investors that include the Kuwait Investment Authority.”
“GIC’s surprise move comes less than a month after it pumped a massive 11 billion Swiss francs for a stake of up to 9 per cent in Swiss bank UBS. The investment in Citi is made through a type of securities that give GIC a fixed coupon payment of 7 per cent until the time when GIC chooses to convert them into shares. This gives GIC more protection against risks if Citi’s shareprice plummets further. In contrast, GIC’s investment in UBS takes the form of ‘convertible notes’ which pay a higher annual return of 9 per cent, and must be converted into UBS stock within two years of the date of issue. This means that GIC will get a higher return for bearing the additional risk that UBS’s shareprice may fall further at the end of the two years.”
“The Government of Singapore Investment Corporation (GIC) said it would inject 11 billion Swiss francs (US$9.74 billion) into UBS, which on Monday announced further writedowns of around US$10 billion (6.8 billion euros) due to the US sub-prime mortgage crisis. ”
“The UBS deal was based on convertible bonds paying 9% a year. The bonds need to be exchanged for shares 2 years after they are issued following approval by UBS shareholders. UBS has lost around 18% of its value since GIC announced its $9.75 billion investment in early December. GIC announced a $6.8 billion investment in Citigroup earlier this week.”
“GIC, which invests more than US$100 billion (S$143 billion) of Singapore’s foreign reserves abroad, has also injected funds into major banks including nearly US$7 billion (S$10 billion) in Citigroup Inc , announced on Tuesday, and US$9.75 billion (S$13.94 billion) for Swiss bank UBS AG. GIC’s sister firm Temasek Holdings took a US$4.4 billion (S$6.29 billion) equity stake in U.S. brokerage Merrill Lynch last month, as global banks face massive write-downs from the U.S. subprime mortgage crisis.”
“THE Government of Singapore Investment Corp (GIC) has committed US$300 million (S$428.97 million) to a U.S. hedge fund for investing in real estate securities, said a statement by the fund obtained by Reuters on Wednesday. GIC’s real estate investment arm will also acquire a minority stake in the fund, California-based Rosen Real Estate Securities, to capture its future growth, the statement issued by Rosen said. The fund is run by Kenneth Rosen, a professor of real estate and urban economics at the University of California in Berkeley.”
“Don’t count your chickens before they are hatched, Temasek is tied down in the investment for a year, meaning cannot sell off the investments till a year has passed. The shares was sold at a discount (so obviously the share price will be above discounted price) to Temasek, close to 2 months have passed and the share is still trading $50.39 (yes, since you last posted 2 hours ago @ 9.58AM the share price has dipped $1.07). Maybe if you had posted this immediately after Temasek bought over, the shares of Merril Lynch would be trading around $53, which you can claim that Temasek made a worthwhile investment, because the shares was sold at a discount. The share price is on a downtrend, not an uptrend since Temasek’s purchase. Temasek will buy $4.4 billion worth of Merrill stock with an option for $600 million more by March 28. Merrill gave Temasek a discount partly in exchange for a lock-up agreement that keeps the investor from selling shares for a year. Anything can happen in a year, if the US recession becomes a reality (which I most often think it will), there will be more job losses and defaults on mortgages exacerbating the already traumatised financial sector.”
Derivatives are now an inextricable way of life. You can live with it or you can run away.
If you run away, run far away from modern civilisation. Practise rubbing sticks to make fire. You cannot not compete if you stay.
If you stay then try to learn to be Master of the Game. Learn to be self-reliant and DIY. Put your own life back into your own hands.
Kenny Rogers says this in the Gambler
“if youre gonna play the game, boy, ya gotta learn to play it right.”
In these final words, you can find an ace that you can keep.
Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSev8AbB2SA
It is wiser to own solid and real assets that are income-generating and have growth potential in value due to productivity and increase in real (not bubble or “clever” made believe)economic activities.
Ownership assets purchased with fundamentally sound economic and financial value will ride out economic and currency crises. Value are preserved.
Categories include:
a) Precious metals : Platinium, Gold, Silver
b) Rare Coins
c) Stocks with strong economic and financial fundamentals
d) Real Estate
e) Collectibles
” When it comes to property market, memories are short, as with stock market. It is cyclical. Hence prudence is the best policy.”
Before investing in any solid and real assets (not second or third rate papers) it is prudent to invest time and effort to know and understand business performance, financial position and condition, assets economic valuation.
(Are sub-prime quality papers and derivatives?).
Do one want to follow made believers? Do one homework and seek knowledge, understanding and wisdom. There is no short cut to value and quality.
Stay away from all forms of bubble. Watch these bubbles build up as passing clouds unless one want to catch on and suck into in the game of speculation as well in euphoria and hope for the best with quick sand platform.
Know and understand: a) classes of assets and value with clarity, b)what are risks and what are at risk, then one can respect and manage risks and reap valuable gains and growth.
A @ #4
I agree to disagree.
There are many others. But it is a good list of popular asset classes. There is no absolute asset advantage as in gold is better than belly pork. It depends on the market (eg price, liquidity, volatility) and contract specification (eg leverage, cost).
I will elaborate from the list
a) Precious metals : Platinium, Gold, Silver
– Virtually no investor hoards these nowadays in its physical form. They buy into their derivative or paper versions eg futures, warrants, gold stock CFD etc
b) Rare Coins – this is one genuine stand-alone assset class and includes other antiquities and art eg paintings (not copies). The best market for this is auction. This is why for rare items sold in a flea market we advocate an auction mechanism for price exposure. Whoever sold the yellow thinket box and LDs possibly could have got more for a rare item.
c) Stocks with strong economic and financial fundamentals – Even Spore Inc execute their acquistions using derivative papers when they don’t neeed the leverage. Or the moreso should individuals. Sporeans are spoilt for choice. There are warrants, CFDs, single stock futures etc. Another example. Scorebot’s house strategy is “long underlying stocks and short the corresponding derivative”
d) Real Estate – True if you bought real estate with your own cash. Once you buy a house with loan and/or on plan, the investment takes on an equivalent derivative risk/reward profile. Similarly, REIT is a derivative product. You must learn to deal with derivatives.
e) Collectibles – As in (b), genuine collectibles, like Ter’s celebrity used balloons, are non-derivative. Hmmm…. well unless the celebrity is himself….
Stay knowledgeable, understand and be wise in whatever one buys assets.
Know all form of investments including derivatives and know their inherent risks.
Seek out true value and quality.
For an example, there are many kinds of food and drink. If one wants to be strong and healthy, one picks those that provide nutrition, do good to the mind, body and spirit, build up and create value
Drink and drive makes “high” and dangerous episodes. Make wise choices and live healthy lifestyles.
Acquire robust and solid assets that generate income and value.
Live, work and play with clarity and sound discipline.
Focus on valuable and solid things that last.
Addenda to 2nd para at #7
Know all forms of investment and their derivatives, and know and understand their inherent risks and value.
We live in dangerous times:
There’s another US300 billion not accounted for in sub-prime losses.
US$ is dropping as is the US economy: Will we be affected? So far, the Euro and Asian markets have shown some resistance, but for how long?
Financial institutions and their CEOs are not held accountable for their malpractice: Pushing unsecured and no-interest mortgages to low or even no-income families. Then repackaging them as high grade bonds to resell. These CEOs have since then retired or resigned with fat millions in benefits.
So where do we, the ordinary citizens of Singapore, stand?
Can we really learn all about investments (and derivatives) and make the right decisions?
Hi Kenneth at#9
I shared about assets impairment provisions (FRS 33) a few times since last November. Checked with people like Max and four SHCians I shared on Monday, 17 March 2008 evening.
1)If you are referring to the portion of assets impairments provisions yet to be accounted for under iFRS 33?
2)US is the world largest economy. Its currency is one of the key international reserves and is used in global transactions in base and previous resources.
When an elephant and his partner(s) dance or copulating, the grass will be affected either positively or adversely, depending on the positive or negative behaviours.
3) Seek and gain deep knowledge, understanding and wise application for your hard-earned capital. No effort is no gains but euphoria and mere speculation and “news” of all sorts, including dys-information and politically correct remarks/statements.
Bear S CEO said last week his company is not having liquidity problems to “calm the world”. This week it was sold at $2 to JP. Its highest stock price last year was around $150, losing $148.
Would a lost value be gained back 75 times within one/three year without creating true productive value?
Seek robust and solid knowledge, gain clear understanding and have vivid wisdom of what to plan and act.
There are valued assets around during these turbulent financial and currency times. You need good acuity, sharpness of mind with emotional stability and maturity.
Insightful practical knowledge, understanding and wisdom of economic, political and financial fundamentals give one acuity, mental sharpness and steadiness in the midst of turmoils with the abilities and scope to hunt treasures.
in base and precious resources (para 3)
ken @ #9
Do you read and watch the news? Then you are as ready as you can be.
All you further need is to make “making money” a hobby just like cycling or dancing. You don’t need to know everything. Indeed you should not try.
All you need is to be passionate in one thing to make a very good living out of a lucrative hobby in trading, investment or business. If you have strong views of one thing, it is enough.
Warren Buffett’s Value Investment strategy is not only about rocket science and complex valuation. It has a simple practical message. All you need to be a fine investor if you have the knack to value things which people want to buy.
It could be just a yellow tiffin box. Buy low and sell high to corner the market. You can be a major collector/seller of yellow tiffin boxes in the world. And convert a simple hobby to a lucrative investment/business.
One solid table needs more than one leg to be steady, useful and robust and of value.
Five key strengths:
Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Passion and Discipline.
Warren Buffet won’t buy any assets he does not know, understand or have practical wisdom of the businesses. Read Mary Buffet book on her father in law.
He is also passionate and disciplined about the businesses he buys.
Look at his simple and meaningful lifestyle.
A fine investor has at least five fine attributes and qualities as mentioned in #13.
To be a fine gentleman or a graceful lady wise investor you don’t need to be a rocket scientist.
Go for key foundational fundamentals first.
If you want to be a good golfer, learn and establish good habits and foundation, right swings and putting skills, and stay healthy in mind, body and spirit.
Golf can become one’s hobby/exercise for a long time.
Most important are common sense, dignity, diligence, courage, confidence, on-going life-long learning abilities and habits, and appropriateness in live, work and play.
Stay clear of mis-information in all medias. Be discerning with half-truths and myths.
Seek for oneself truths and realities, one will be blessed and contented.
I have share enough the importance of knowing, understanding and wisdom of foundation and fundamentals for wise investing habits and action.
I rest my case here.
Make your own wise decisions and move on with acuity, sharpness and wholesomeness.
WKT…I am actually very amazed at yr “making money” power mind!…always thinking on investments!..u must be a very rich man by now..wow!..hhhmmm, got pots of gold hidden eh?
I really like yr phrase..turn a hobby into a bisness,built an empire!..that kept me wondering..U r rite!..but we must work the butt out!..alamak..so lazy lor..apa macam?
So what to do?
Take the news first. Bloomberg reports
“The Federal Reserve cut its main lending rate by three-quarters of a percentage point to 2.25 percent as officials try to prop up the faltering economy and restore faith in the U.S. financial system….. Recent information indicates that the outlook for economic activity has weakened further….inflation has been elevated, and some indicators of inflation expectations have risen.”
Markets rally as I write. You can try to ride the bull for intra-day trading.
But I don’t think this is the upturn. It is going to be a long, dry summer. There will be lots of stale and dead bulls. I will err on the short side. IMO, until there is blood in the (Wall) street, the market will not turn.
This is the most appropiate time to bready to short your long equity portfolio with CFDs. 100% hedge for a market neutral strategy or net short the market.
The last word goes to Tom Jones and Denise Williams. The message is for all the hopeful bulls and what I think of a Greenspan and Bernanke duet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ri5HxNQ0mY
See. Now wasn’t that simple and fun? And we didn’t even have to send in Steven to whip the market up.
Hee hee
The world cheats and the richer you’re, the more you cheat to get and stay where you’re
A happy day if warren buffett thinks less of making money and more of seeing less hungry people. A day of immense joy if he goes into the food business, warranting buffets of the highest quality and free for the poor and hungry in africa as well as the burgeoning hungry in sunset america.
Andrew@10
The Straits Times (19th March) today gives a good account of what I was thinking about on the US crises and the economy. Read pages 32, 34. Editorial and Money page H24 (for UBS’s CEO’s statement and pay cut).
I am not able to comprehend the intricacies of iFRS 33 or other corporate financial governance and reporting standards.
I can guess that the US is trying to stabilise it’s financial industry (and the economy) by bailing out Bear Sterns guaranteeing its $40 billion mortgages and letting JPMorgan buy Stearns for US$2 per share! A mere US$236 million for a firm worth US$20 billion! Now why doesn’t the GIC or Temasek do this deal?
Tim Liu@18
I must disagree stongly with you on Warren Buffett:
He’s the only billionaire I know to take only US$100,000 as salary. And he’s donated some US$50 billion of his fortune to charity through Bill Gate’s foundation. He’s also pledged his whole wealth to charity. I would like to see any of our highly-paid public servants do even a tenth of what Buffett does.
Dear Kenneth at #19 on FRS (Financial Reporting Standard)33.
Are you an accountant by profession?
FRS 33 is about Impairment of Assets.
You can check out iFRS with any international professional accounting bodies web-sites, including Singapore ICPAS (Institute of Certified Public Accountants of Singapore)
We can discuss off-line on this financial technical subject.
You would have known of Tim by now in any economic or financial discussion.
Cheers,
Andrew
Hi Kenneth at #19 on Bear Sterns sale to JP.
Perhaps you like to direct that question on GIC or TH thr your MP?
Buying BS at about 1plus% cost to NAV? Good buy.
Heee, Kenneth, I can feel yr gripe of my gibe on that buffet man. Of cos in truth, the hit is deflected at our money-no-enough minstrels who call the tune and sing like mules………
Ok, granted, warren almost brought a country down several years ago when that country started to blink first in a high rollers’ game.
I did read a fair bit abt this exceptional man…..even bill gates extened his planned half hour meeting to 10 hours so he has to be one who can talk the walk.
My daughter has just asked me : why does he need to draw a salary when the $-mart is enriching him all the time? What does he do with his money when he keeps no honey and breeds no bunny ?
Do you know ?
Re #20
Shd be FRS 36 – Impairment of Assets
Derivatives are often subject to the following criticisms:
*The use of derivatives can result in large losses due to the use of leverage. Derivatives allow investors to earn large returns from small movements in the underlying asset’s price. However, investors could lose large amounts if the price of the underlying moves against them significantly. There have been several instances of massive losses in derivative markets, including:
*The Nick Leeson affair in 1994.
*The bankruptcy of Orange County, CA in 1994, the largest municipal bankruptcy in U.S. history. On December 6, 1994, Orange County declared Chapter 9 bankruptcy, from which it emerged in June 1995. The county lost about $1.6 billion through derivatives trading. Orange County was neither bankrupt nor insolvent at the time; however, because of the strategy the county employed it was unable to generate the cash flows needed to maintain services. Orange County is a good example of what happens when derivatives are used incorrectly and positions liquidated in an unplanned manner; had they not liquidated they would not have lost any money as their positions rebounded.
*The bankruptcy of Long-Term Capital Management in 2000.
*The loss of $6.4 billion in the failed fund Amaranth Advisors, which was long natural gas in September 2006 when the price plummeted.
*The loss of $7.2 Billion by Société Générale in January 2008 through mis-use of forward contracts.
Further to Tim’s comment #22 regarding Warren :
Derivatives typically have a large notional value. As such, there is the danger that their use could result in losses that the investor would be unable to compensate for. The possibility that this could lead to a chain reaction ensuing in an economic crisis, has been pointed out by legendary investor Warren Buffett in Berkshire Hathaway’s annual report. Buffet stated that he regarded them as ‘financial weapons of mass destruction’. The problem with derivatives is that they control an increasingly larger notional amount of assets and this may lead to distortions in the real capital and equities markets. Investors begin to look at the derivatives markets to make a decision to buy or sell securities and so what was originally meant to be a market to transfer risk now becomes a leading indicator. Many economists[citation needed] are worried that derivatives may cause an economic crisis at some point in the future.
The market is very volatile and there are times where we learnt of Shares’ Manipulations that cause impairment/upswing on Trading. Natural disasters and Wars that effecting Shares Market and etc….
So “Look before you Leap” and always remember : “Fire is a good servant but a bad master”
Have a Nice Day.
Patrick Yeo
Ken @ #19
Where do you hail from?
We are S’poreans. We are different. We donate to the rich. We lose money and can still SMILE.
Pat @ #24
IMO.
You are right on facts but wrong on conclusions. It is the other way around.
Trading financials are zero sum game. There is a buyer for every seller. That fortunes are lost only mean that fortunes are won.
Liquidity, volatility and leverage are your friends not enemies. It is because of them that you can beat the market and win a king’s ransom.
If you can drive, is driving dangerous? Same with trading. But if you refuse to learn then you just have yourself to blame.
It’s all in the KNOW. If you know, you can.
We’ll have live trading with novices next week. You can then see again how newbies can humble the best players in the world provided they play with the right tools.
Knowledge is the greatest wealth leveller.
Derivatives are not assets. They are traded with nominal value without real valued assets in ownership.
Patrick, thanks for the inclusion of the article on derivatives at#24. I was about to mention some parts in the article.
Global financial markets and economic systems impact almost every country as they are inter-connected in trade, capital flows, investments, financial instruments and derivatives.
Whether Kenneth is a Singaporean is not relevant. Finance and economics are common denominators in today’s world.
No one(Singaporean) who loses money smiles, but learned a lesson, wisely not to repeat it. Wise people strengthen up and grow.
Hi KT : Care to tell us what are the right trading tools mentioned in #26 last para for understanding please?
A @ #27
Easy. The right tool is the winning tool.
Nor @ #16
In the end, it is not about money.
Remember what Kenny Rogers says in the Gambler. We don’t count our money until the dealing’s done. I’ll pass the final deal with my last breath.
Hi KT at #29
What is this winning tool?
Would you like to provide an illustration simple enough to understand?
Money is denominator in finance and economy and wealth creation.
WKT@29..wow!..i can see that u r very passionate abt yr money matters,that’s yr hobby i know.
AndrewK@30…yr last phrase a little ‘chim’..my maths koyak lah..tak faham, no wonder cashflow always tak balance..hehe
Money is the key medium of exchange for goods and services.
Quote : “Men prepare a meal for enjoyment, and wine makes life merry, and money is the answer to everything.
“Blessed a land whose king is of nobility, and whose princes eat at the appropriate time for strength, and not for drunkenness”. Unquote.
A @ #32
I’ll toast to that.
#30
Simple, huh…
It’s like having an ATM in your home. Switch it on and let it make money for you. Whenever you need, go and transfer money to your credit card, check account or pay your bills.
The problem you have now is how to spend your time with a lot of cash. And how to tell your boss what you really think of him, his job and to lick his own frozen fingers.
I heard that you have a competitor celebrity. How does it feel sharing glamour?
Hee hee
Nor @ #31
You may be surprised what other passions I have in other areas. Quite a diversified portfolio.
Hee hee
Wong KT
You talk in riddles and don’t come clear (or clean) to many SHCs especially the older ones like me!
KT@28 & 33
Are you saying that your “winning tool” is the autotrading of forex?
Can you support it with real figures and examples, please.
Or do I need to attend your forex course for $2,000 plus to find out?
Tim Liu@22
I think you may be mixing up George Soros with Buffett…
Soros is the ultimate currency futures trader who brought down the sterling and also incurred the cusses of Mahathir during the SEAsian currency crisis.
Kenneth, you arent as old as you think you’re. Yes you spotted my mistake there – he was George, not the buffet man. Now, who’s getting old?
KT will come clean very soon. See, raised in a well-to-do family, he has worked hard and succeeded in life so he never had to do any cleaning, cleaning himself.
Saly, after that long wet kiss of the solid hippos, his mate & maids refused to clean him up, fearing that he has gone crooked. But you & I and many more know that he’s straighter than an arrow. They’re putting him under observation no less exacting than in the ICU and then he’ll get his overdue scrapping & brushing………let’s pray for that day to come early.
Hi KT at #33
Come clean with a simple illustration.
No one will not want a grandfather’s ATM at home if it works surely and flow continuously without fail.
Hi WongKY,
If everyone of us has as ATM at home to milk our money, if there a need for us to work.
There will be no beggars and everyone can be a millionaire.
If there is such a wonderful machine at home as you suggest, I will not install one but 10 of them.
Tik kam tik kam and suka suka can extract money . Walau!
Patrick, you my butty but you no good leh. You only remember me bcos of food and so associates me with the warranted buffet when, in the main of my messages, I hv been alerting all & sundry of the underlying asssets which is really one’s committment in an investment in derivatives or where margin call is part of the game.
Humgry or not? Let’s go for town’s longest buffet at only $10.90……..
Hi Steven
A billionaire when the flow is $1000 per minute within a patient medium term of 2 plus years.
With that assured flow of money, we will buy the largest bank in US at USD2.05 per share with a premium of 2.5% and have surplus for another bank good real assets.
Let us pray and ask for grace, generosity and full blessings. Ask and it shall be given.
Let us request one at the Red Land in the East and another at the West Land.
???? (co-operation at both ends), ??? (double harvest),???? (double happiness)
Hi AndrewK
Thanks for sharing your five key strengths:
Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Passion and Discipline.
These are the sure win strengths for everything not only investment. Among the five, I think Discipline is the most important one in investment, as it not only let you win more, but also make you loss less (there is always money out there, but our money is limited)
But we need a lot of time (and money) to nurture these 5 strengths. So comparatively, KT Wong is a much wiser man than you.
He can always suggest wonderful idea to get rich. Previously, he told us want to be rich is very easy, just talk to yourself 100 times each day “I will be rich”. Now he give a much more fantastic one – “PUT AN ATM AT HOME”. Wow, magic.
But as he is a wise man, his advice to an ordinary man like me is just like to put me in the Botanical Garden and leave me there, and I lost my way out.
Ha ha, KT, just joking, no provocation. Just want to borrow this thread to SAY HI TO ALL THE GOOD FRIENDS IN SHC, I’m still alive, but not living very well. Working day and night and gain just a little, sigh. Desperate want to know how to put an ATM at home
Hi Yeung at #41
You are absolutely right that KT is much much much wiser.
Waiting for the ATM to be installed at my home before SHC D&D and to consider buying the largest bank in US for $2.05 per share.
Look for a tickle of $1,000 per minute will do from the ATM.
As advised, I tickled the ATM – armpits, nostrils, groin & all – but it neither laughs or trickles tears, and I was made to look silly tickling a machine……….
Tim,
I’m ever-ready for buffet especially at @$ 10.90.
Anyone want to join in the buffet?
Btw is it Lunch or Dinner buffet?
Pls advise.
Patrick Yeo
Hi Tim / Patrick Yeo,
$10.90 sounds like the same Peranakan buffet we had at Chilli Padi.( North Bridge Rd. branch )
Am I right?
Every one likes an ATM machine of our own. So am I, but I choose to be close to it and hopfully I can also create one MYSELF.
If the ATM don’t come to you then the only way is go to the ATM.
Nothing will come true if one is not seriously and constantly looking for it.
I have this dream of the ATM, when I found it I may share the secret to this ATM but on the other hand most people will not believe it so why bother to share.
I think KT is generous to let us know that there is such an ATM around. For me I will rather say look for my personal web page to discover it yourself.
My humble thought… click “DennisH” Says: to see for yourself.
Do we llke another game here, Just after our National Dish.
My proposal Guess what is ATM. The winners will get a surprise.
DennisH
For the Game, I think a separate thread is required. My first guess (A)nother (T)ype of (M)ankind, (A)nother (T)rue (M)oney.
DennisH
Has the ATM which our National Dish winner given out the cash yet, Dennis?
May I request for one simple illustration for the efficacy of the ATM?
I was/am prepared to invest an initial capital of $1,0000 as mentioned in the other thread under National Dish Competition. KT assured of a guarantee of capital and no more top-up. I requested a binding legal covenant and seal this deal.
Am ready for real action.
Seek real action to reap real cashable returns.
Hope do not need to repeat what were transpired in that thread again.
Hi Andrewk @48 if you are on ATM I go with you. But don’t do it here Terence will come after ME again.
I don’t promise any “ATM” to the winners. For your info the winners are informed and is excited and coming forward.
As regard to the efficacy “Q” the operator had already mentioned under the thread “SINGAPORE NATIONAL DISH CONTEST RESULTS” #1 Pls read and ask on that thread.
“…….taking profit at 1.5743 at 6.06 pm making a profit of 47 pips or profit of 0.3% in an hour.”
AndrewK, How many of 0.3% would you like on an hour basis and you have 5x24hrs. non-stop. Its in your making not ME.
You want my version of the ATM go to my webpage. I would like to create one that give you the most free and easy way to express.
DennisH
Hi Dennis under #50
What time-frame needed to realise real profits?
As mentioned in #49, am ready to put capital and reap profits.
Ready to ink the covenant?
Dennis Har # 47.
“Guess what is ATM”.
Ample Time and Money? To live a wonderful and meaningful life? Do I get a prize for my guess? ;-)
Beautiful.
Hi Dennis, what ample time needed to gain real returns from the “created ATM” ?
ATM machine. Still a lot of doubting Thomases. Never mind, lets assume that it is really an ATM machine. Now, KT & DennisH what is the total cost for this exercise?
Beside the initial USD1000 capital, what are the other hidden costs. Application software costs,installation costs, regular updating costs, opening of account charges, penalty for early closing of accounts, etc, etc.
Is it right to assume the autotrade is not full proof,requires human intervention in situations not anticipated by the software. What about possible computer glitches leading to astronomical transactions and the risk of margin calls, etc.
Hi Charles
In any investing or putting money in any form of venture, it is wisdom to have knowledge and understanding with steady emotions and maturity.
Clarity of meaning, purpose and significance and respect risks come from knowledge and deep understanding of key fundamental foundations.
Most money managers of speculator type suffer because of half cooked knowledge and lack of understanding of above essentials, or just follow sales pitch of flowery promises and “nice” sounding make-believe.
To seek knowledge, clarity and deep understanding is not akin to doubling.
The ATM concept stirs some interests, that is why I ask questions to seek answers to ensure my understanding.
I was involved in evaluating dot.com ventures in 1999 and 2000, I did not recommend 99% of them because there were no revenue streams to sustain the value of the business models, a key fundamental in value investing.
I did not lose a cent during the three-year dot.com era.
I seek real value and sustaining models.
Mary @52 “Ample Time and Money?” I Love your ATM. read my comments at Roberts newest thread. Join me with Robert for your price.
Charles @54 we are suppose to meet for lunch on your Stock Holding. Let me share my TA with you. Don’t worry on FOC for U only.
Sori #57 ….. Don’t worry FOC ….
DennisH
Mary @ #52
I like it.
Beauty and brains. When you have it, flaunt it. It is hard to be humble.
I know what its like. Hounded by fans; love by many, hate by some. It is the cost of being a celebrity at the pain of fame. Don’t worry about the detractors. What is age when we live in a timeless dimension. Forgive the critics for they know not.
Just play and throw. When do you takeout your rubbish? After collection, I will send the bimbo toy boys to the incinerator and the rest of the barang2 to the flea market.
Yes. We are much alike, you and I. We are nobody’s dictates. We live the life we choose. For your courage, you win a free ATM. Collect it at Scorebot. All we want in return for a $2,960 package is a large colour signed poster of your ad for Scorebot.
And there is more! We are giving Dennis away as the door gift. Clean the foam at the mouth and take him away. No warranty and no return.
Ample Time and Money. Enjoy!
Hee hee
KT you are prepare to even throw away your punching bag? :)
I think Terence will be the first to laugh.
DennisH :-D
AndrewK @51 …Ready to ink the covenant?
Sound to good if compare Fundamental/Technical Analysis that you can accept it.
Just because personally I find Fundamental and Technical Analysis are two difference school of thoughts. One has to compromise, one for the other.
Here we don’t See intrinsic values. No PE to talk about. All about Speculation having High Risk and High Returns with no emotions but a system to minimise the RISK with HIGH probabilities. So what is the end equation?
= A Time tested Machine
Which can cost a boom better don’t try.
DennisH
Dennis Har, #57.
Glad you like my guess.
Prize or price??
KTWong.
Thank you for your compliments. Very generous of you.
Bimbo toy boys? Where? Where? Tell me, tell me. So I can go grab a few for myself.
What the heck is this ATM prize? I see the string that’s attached, hahaha.
Poor Dennis. (Oh, which one is that? H or W?)
Hi Dennis at #61
Value Investing is not what you describe.
Economic and financial fundamentals are basic essentials in all value investors.
Technical charts depict market trading behaviours.
I read and understand both.
Please do not confuse, let focus on Auto Trading, your ATM now.
Am ready to sign your Auto trading covenant with $1,000 guaranteed capital, no top-up and guarantee in real returns within six months.
I want to cash out within six months with guaranteed gains, on?
Still waiting for a simple illustration, after several requests in this thread.
Mary @62 sori, poor English its PRIZE and T not D or W. You see we all refer to difference things.
Are you coming for your prize then I will need RobertQ.
Now its H
DennisH
AndrewK #64, Interesting maybe One day learn Technical Chart reading with you. Are you using MACD, MACDH, RSI or EMA in your TA.
As regards to your last statement probably you had made a request to the wrong person.
The one that can give you a good illustration? I don’t think Terence will ever allow him to comments on SHC board.
You may have to pay your price for him to extract out his brain cell.
The Prize winners will have access to him for this bit of information if they request.
DennisH
Mary @ # 63
All kinds at the next flea market. G-string and leash not included.
Dennis the Tart can cook. “Ha, Ha, Ha” can change to “Ho, Ho ,Ho” and play Santa Claus to your kid’s party at Christmas.
But by then you may be drawing from your ATM to take the family to Alsaka to meet Santa.
Hee hee
Patrick & Steven, let’s go for that $10.90 buffet but we’ll hv to eat atop the tree facing 18 Bali Lane……….
Charles @ #54; Andrew (various # – nag, nag, nag …)
Uhhh….
Now I know. Nobody listens when I talk.
I thought that you guys were at one of the FREE previews specially arranged for SHC members. There we went to great lenghts about the TOE (Theory of Everything) on autotrading. We showed real data runs, simulations and tools based on TA and Fundamental Analysis working together. The ATM is based on all and the best tools in the industry. Both rigorosly back and forward tested in time. Best of all we even ran a real trade in public at the Spore National Dish Prize award setting. The ATM made 47 pips on Euro/USD within an hour all by itself on the first trade straight through without dropping a beat.
The USD $1,000 is not a cost. It is your investment capital. It belongs to you. Even if you play mah jong, you need seed capital. You pay nothing if you DIY your own “guaranteed” fund on the ATM. And you can. But if you want a managed fund, you will typically pay at least 50% rake or 5% of 10% to 15% of real returns. But of course, you won’t know this. You do not know what the real risk/returns are. Unless you DIY then it is obvious even if you count count up to 10 on your fingers. (This last statement may not be obvious but it is too “chim” to discuss here. Ask me at the next preview.)
Even then there are really no real guaranteed funds. It is mostly a Copperfield illusion. These structured products have many conditions. Taken in all, the final payout is either very small in the actual guaranteed portion and/or the guarantee is only effectively a probability.
The easiest way to illustrate this is for yourself is to name your favorite guaranteed fund. I will do a CSI invesment forensics for you. Then you can suck your thumbs and stand at the back of the class after school.
Now I’ll give you a chance to really hate me. Don’t worry. You won’t be lonely.
IMO. Accountants normally make really lousy traders but good investors especially if they stick true to their discipline. To be a good trader, you must be a trader 100%. The philosophies, attitudes and aptitudes of the two are diametrically opposite.
Soros is a trader. Warren is not. Value Invesment is not trading. It is private equity direct invesment ala Warren’s style. Warren makes this clear in his methodology and practice. I am surprised many people refused to recognize this. Perphaps in many people’s minds, they cannot or refuse to accept the difference between investment and trading. One does not validate or invalidate the other. They are separate disciplines to wealth generation.
The problem is Warren’s real success style cannot be directly put into practice from theory by you and me. Can we buy big companies in a big way at big discount to market; and focus on certain long term turnaround parameters at board seat level. Not even our Big Brother has the balls and brains to do this; otherwise they would have bought Big Bear instead at 90% + discount.
You can buy Berkshire Hathaway (Warren’s compny) at USD 100K per share. The only other way for us to follow Warren into happy$-land is only one indirect way. But that is a topic for another day…
OK Tim & Steven,
Please state date and time for our buffet.
Best Regards
Patrick Yeo
Hi KT at #69
Would you care to share the actual gains of the National Dish Competition award by Alicia from the ATM trade ?
You were right to mention that day trading is distinctly different from investing.
Just like a medical doctor is distinctively different with a dental surgeon.
Cheers,
A @ # 71
OK. Back to basic 101.
Gains / Losses in forex trading is quoted in pips.
Pip (or Points) is a term used in Forex market to indicate the smallest incremental move an exchange rate can make. Depending on context, normally one basis point 0.0001 in the case of EUR/USD, GBD/USD, USD/CHF and .01 in the case of USD/JPY.
A pip value is scalable depending on the account traded. In the most popular contract size traded, standard contract in EUR/USD is equal to USD 10 per pip and mini is USD 1 per pip. We used an educational micro account which pays USD 0.10 per pip.
The actual gains in the Spore National Dish Contest prize is exactly net 47 pips in approximately an hour. No hidden costs. This is the real gain as if you are actually trading money.
If you are a trader, you would say “WOW”! I guess the climax is missed out by most since it draws no significance to most members.
It is a “WOW” is because this was completely real and random. We didn’t start the trade at the fix opening but when members filed in at about 3.30pm. It is a good indication of the robustness of the ATM in that it can confidently pick a winner on demand in relatively slow and directionless trading. In fact, the ATM arrogantly made a profit selling EUR/USD against a strong upward trend for EUR against a weak USD. If we really want to impress the audience we would fix it so that the first trade is a buy not a sell. We would insure ourselves a lot of potential embarassment. But we left the ATM to do it in its own way and it came reliably across for all of us.
If you miss the significance of this demonstration, then come to a preview for your own good. Whether you like it or not you are putting your fortune into trading one way or another, directly or indirectly. Just to learn about trading in general is good enough to protect yourself finacially. At least, you know when fortune smile you in the face or is about to slap you silly. Otherwise, you are flying blind and your whole retirement financial planning is a blind gamble.
But one trade is not a statistic.
The actual significnace of the ATM is that it can make a lot of money. Question is if it can also lose a lot. To appreciate robustness, you can join the next preview and examine in detail the defensive mechanism of the ATM. Doctor or no doctor. Can you survive the worst and stay in the game. If you can then the ATM will be the proverbial golden goose.
Ask yourself. Is your funds in CPF trading, investing or gambling from your perspective? It seems very funny to me that many people do not know the answer to this question that will potentially change their life. And what is shocking, is many don’t even know or care to know the question. And many are still willing to put their lives into hands of complete strangers not knowing what they will do ?!
If this is rape and I am the judge, I will jail the victim for being too stupid to walk the streets.
Learn to think and act for yourself. This is the only way to ensure that your interests are best protected.
Andrew the Yeung @ #41
I agree with you.
I’ll make you an offer. I will swap with you. My “Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Passion and Discipline” for your “Lots of Sex and Money”.
You can then “Know” and “Understand” what I’ll do with what I’ve got from you. You will then “Wise”-up to swap your Five now with someone else’s Two at the next opportunity. In the meantime, you will go and expend your lost “Passion” in the nearest public toilet.
After your next swap, you will be smart enough to attend the next preview to understand how to create your very own ATM. At least, you can now afford to really enjoy your new acquisitions without having to worry about the next bill.
Hee-hee.
KT at #71
1) Would you share : what is the actual realized value of the prize that Alicia finally received?
2) With the robust defensive ATM system, what is expected average returns it could achieve this year ?
3) In one simple illustration, how would you create one ATM ?
KT at #72 for #74
Hi AndrewK at 74,
3)….. In one simple illustration, how would you create one ATM ?
No need to create one.
Just loan them from POSB,Citibank,OUB etc…and you can have $$$ at your disposal. Ha! ha!
Guys,
Quick one. Come to the next preview. You get both the right questions and answers.
Hi Wong KT,
Why are u so obsessed abt. investments ?
Surely, life can be more meaningful and interesting than just $$$ alone.
Hi KT at #72 and #77
Would you like to provide answers to the three questions at #74 please?
Hi Steven at #78, day trading is vastly different from investing in assets with our hard-earned savings.
The former is derivatives trading.
Prudence with knowledge, understanding and wisdom with discipline and emotional stability are key to enjoy our journey in serendipity.
If one invests in ownership assets, their value have economic and financial elements and intrinsic value.
Look at today’s (22 March) Business Times page 2 report titled : More hedge funds in UK, Europe expected to close.
Quote: ” Freeze on investor withdrawal sound death knell; banks checking credit lines”
Warmest regards
Hi Steven at #78
Life is to be lived out in three main aspects : live, work and play.
Live – purposefully within personal, family, communities and the world at large.
Work – involve in meaningful production of goods and services in exchange for money to live, save and invest for other pursuits and needed retirement fund
Play – leisures and purposeful exploits to harmonize and enhance our body, mind and spirit.
Investing our hard-earned savings is crucial so that we have continuous cash flow for expenses and pursuit of living and play.
Andrew @ # 79, 80
The next public FAQ at the next preview will ask the all right and intelligent questions; and provide the answers at the same time. I will invite everybody to come. Academic, professionals, scholars, traders, investors, the “haves” and the “have-nots-but-want-to-have”.
All you ever wanted to know about ATM but afraid to ask. Or don’t know what/how to ask.
To make it really fun, even if you are already financially independent, come in and contribute to the debate especially if you are trained in system audit and/or experience in any form of investment and trading.
Expose a fraud or endorse a system that can change people’s lives. Consider it a public service and social enterprise to all others who find rocket science in the application of wealth generation a bit initimidating. Help to give the balance and objectivity to the debate.
If it is really an ATM, just talking down at it without a proper scientific enquiry and analysis would be also doing a great public diservice, don’t you think? We would have deprived many who would have benefit greatly from it on a presumption and prejudice.
Not the savvy investors. The savvy investors have done investment and trading before even PC was mainstream. Savvy investors will trade and make money, computer or no. They will continue to do so even if the age of computers and the age of man comes to pass. And, presumably, till the end of the world, they will pass the last trade with their last breath.
Did you watch the latest version of the original “Planet of the Apes”. Even the monkeys are trading and making money in the markets. (BTW, the story line is that it is actually earth after the age of man which was destroyed by human wars.)
Clever monkeys to stay in the jungle until man burn themselves out. So don’t think you can sit back and continue to inherit the world by just talking and no action.
Progress has a price. That even monkeys have to pay.
Hee-hee
Give you an idea, how long ago was my first love affair with IT.
I carried the first portable, an Osbourne laptop, to the Simex floor when it was still in the old World Trade Centre. For those IT savvy, you may remember that this system running on CPM DOS is one of the first mass portable in the world. YK may remember but he may be too young.
This was how my Osbourne looks like
http://kerncomputing.blogspot.com/2005/04/linux-as-mobile-os-or-not-so-fast.html
Not a laptop unless you fancy moving around in a wheelchair. It weighs in at a leg crushing 12 kg after accessories. This is why I had gushing muscles in my age of innocence. I lugged the machine around.
I have very few regrets in my life. But one regret is that I failed to keep my first loves. If I kept my original Osbourne and Apple PCs, they would soon be valuable antiques now.
Believe it or not. Even I can make a mistake. It is a bad human habit.
Steven@78 & All,
Agreed, wealth is not everything ;-)
For your info, there is a holistic festival going on at Fort Canning Park today & tom, 10am – 8pm.
Entrance fee :$3 only.
Vendors : From Aromatherapy to Yoga
http://holisticliving.com.sg/index.php
Am going there around 5pm today. Give me a buzz if anyone is interesed too. Nice weekend!
Jonathan
96167518
Steven @ #78
Just the opposite. I take money very lightly nowadays with ATM.
That is why I am so free to be KP. Teasing people, organising flea markets, Blue Helmet, travel clubs and getting into tree skirmishes. helping people to fight against their prejudices and ignorance, and having fun with all. With “Ample Time and Money”, everybody can do the same.
Do you think if I am obsessed with anything, I have time and energy for all this?
Hee-hee.
KT at #81 (and several requests to answer), especially your para 2 at #81 :
Quote :”All you ever wanted to know but afraid to ask. Or dont’t know what/how to ask” Unquote.
Would appreciate your straight answers to my three fundamental questions at #74.
No more fresh distractions or further into new irrelevant stories please.
Hi Jonathan Ong,
Thanks for your info.
thanks KT , DennisH and AndrewK for all your comments,opinions and suggestions. I subscribe to the common view all investments or trading carry inherent risks. So whilst exercising caution, one must not shy away from learning or keeping an open mind to new or even ‘too good to be true’ ideas. I will be there for the next ‘ATM” session. This time i will listen carefully & ask more questions.
Dear Charles
Might be there too to learn what are there in the market with an open mind, spirit and heart. I look for substance above form.
Am for life-long learning and evergreen in new and relevant things.
When I was going through the many dot.com evaluations, I was never put off by so many “too good to be true” business models. I still treat each case in its own merit or just another “tall tale”, make believe.
For the latter, I took it in humour in light heartiness to allow human error and smile. To err is human, to forgive divine.
For LOVE covers a multitude of sins.
Hi Charles,
I thought the present ATM you have is already spitting out lots of money. Still not enough ah? You want another one? How many ATM’s you want lah?
Two is good, three just great, four for excellent company.
Dennis Har #65
I don’t believe that there is a prize. If there really is one, then reveal it to me. I think it’s all talk and nothing concrete.
Mary #91, sure your prize is what you can eat at scorebot on me. Bonus is “Ample Time and Money” ATM on the making if you can join Alicia Lim worth S$2,960 want some more carrot then you must really find out.
No catch just your “Time Investment” for the start.
Truely SHCian,
DennisH
Hi all,
ATM stands for ‘Always Talking Money’ whether you can get it or not is another thing, so enjoy the talk and wait for the money if any.
Ronald Wie #93, another nice name ‘Always Talking Money’ but prize given out.
Still can have a cup of coffee.
May be click “DennisH” above Date/Time for treasure hut.
DennisH
Charles #87 “I will be there for the next ‘ATM” session”
You will not find any posting here from me on the next “ATM” event date.
But I give you a clue. Along the Comment#? if you Click “DennisH” and look for “Lastest Events” possibilly you will find one in April.
Good Luck to YOU.
DennisH
Charles @ # 87
That’s the spirit. Keep an open mind. Do your own analysis. Bother to check it out. It may not be clear now. But everything will be diamond clear when you see the colour of money. Hee-hee
You have all to gain and nothing to lose.
Ron @ #43
If you had said “Always Taking Money”, I would have for a prize for you. You have one alphabet “l” too many which would have changed “Talking” to “Taking”.
It is not that “Talking” is critical. Except ATM does not talk at all. It only spews money. Plenty of it when its on a trend run. Like jackpot.
Hee-hee
Never mind try again. Attend the preview.
Hi Charles
I had attended one preview on Algro trading some three weeks ago.
Please share with me(at kuanandrew@gmail.com) your thoughts when they are diamond and crystal clear to you.
Thanks.
Lina @ #89
No fair, Charles. Squirreling an ATM away from your friends, huh.
We show you ours, you must show us yours. But you only show to Lina.
Charles,
No need to play James Bond on a secret mission to save the world. We are very thick skin. You can share everything and exactly what you think here.
I only ask you to be open, objective and scientific in our joint quest for knowledge and wealth. Focus on what the numbers and results tell you. At the next preview, you are invited to bring in friends, experts, investors and traders together with all the questions you want answered. It doesn’t even matter if you think they are competitors. They are more than welcome if they are professional and academic in their approach.
Actually, we don’t see anyone in ATM as competitors. First, there are no serious players other than ourselves in Spore. Second, even if there are we welcome the growth in the research and practioner community.
In terms of R&D, the algo trading community can only help each other in a synergistic way. Just like in Silicon Valley for IT. The greater the cross fertilization of ideas, the better it is for humanity.
And don’t forget. Bring the 007 dames and your golden gun.
hee hee
Hi KT #99,
If you want Charles to show you his, you must first wear a skirt. Ha..ha..
Lina @ #101
I will if you will model Mary Secrets new line from Pratunam. Next Flea Market catwalk.
Then 007 will have no choice but to show his golden gun.
MMeowwww….Claw me, tiger….
Hi KT,
You getting naughtier by the minute!!
Andrew @# 88
I totally agree with you. To quote, let us “look for substance above form”.
All this naughty talk from Lina has given me an inspiration. She’s such a darling. I wonder why I didn’t think of it before. I guess I didn’t think it is possible in this day and age that anybody would doubt the machine’s superiority over man in financial markets.
Why don’t we have an exciting friendly and fun “Man versus Machine Challenge”.
Here’s my suggestion. Very simple. We play off a head-to-head competition for one month with minimum of 5 trades for disqualification.
Since I threw the gauntlet, you have the choice of weapons. You choose the instrument. Everything except Charles’ Golden Gun. It can be any instrument that can be readily available for both manual and ATM trading from a single platform/broker. You field the human team and I’ll send in the cyborgs.
There are many many types of instruments that you can choose. If it is equities you want, you can have the choice of many liquid and volatile US stocks in CFD format eg Apple, Citibank etc or we can do stock indexes. (We can play local stocks but opening a local ATM account will require from $15K to $200K. We don’t need this with foreign brokers and we can run demo for the purpose of the contest. But if you insist on local stocks, I am game. We can both open a separate account with the same local broker.)
Win or lose is not important. What’s important is that all the members will stand to benefit greatly from the contest. They will know what works and what doesn’t. They can then apply the new knowledge in the betterment and upgrading of their lives. And we have the satisfaction of knowing that we have taken a small step forward for humanity.
What about you. How do you want history to remember you by? For me, I have modest ambitions. All I ask from them is to dedicate a roulette table to my foundation.
So do we play?
Hee hee
Hi KT,
At 3….. You are getting naughtier by the minute!!
Not naughtier but more horny.
Dear KT at #104
1) All “tactical strategies” in any machine are programmed according to (inventor) man’s knowledge and parameters.
Machines may be created to produce greater efficiency and speed. Inherent strengths or weaknesses are structured by man.
2) I am keen on value investing not with a machine designed by anyone with the parameters known to themselves.
I have an open mind, heart and spirit with various global and local financial instruments and classes of assets. Focus on those with comparative advantages and strengths.
I would invest based on substance, things that I have knowledge, understanding and continuous learning on basic important essentials and fundamentals.
3) Thanks for you offer. No thanks on machine trading with unknowns.
Besides, I do not do day trading though have understanding about them.
Opportunity cost tells me to stay clear.
A purposeful life is full of many worthy things in live, work and play, and meaningful relationship building.
4)Earning is only a part of my life. You have your merry trading and share your benefits if you care to.
???? – have a share in the benefits on your machine trading.
5) Still hoping to have your straight answers to my three questions at #74.
Aiyoh Dennis Har. So stingy. “Prize”? Hahaha.
Hi Mary, obtain a realized prize during D&D.
Mary DennisH no big boss, just a trader/speculator for now. Willing to share what he knows. Something money can not buy?
So now I know what is Mary’s expectation…
but, I don’t put you in suspend. You just don’t see the value in the Bonus.
Your prize is still on hold.
DennisH,
KTWong, #102
“MMeowwww….Claw me, tiger….” ??
Hahaha!!!
I’m seeing a different person now. All that financial talk must be getting too boring. Your comments are getting ‘juicier’. Well, at least they are making me laugh.
Andrew @ # 106
Your quote
“Thanks for you offer. No thanks on machine trading with unknowns. Besides, I do not do day trading though have understanding about them.
Opportunity cost tells me to stay clear. ”
You’ve got it all wrong again. I didn’t offer you to run value trading on ATM although this is possible.
In #104, I am proposing a friendly, fun and educational contest. You can run your trades any which way using any which method you prefer. We will run our trades on the same instrument through a ATM.
Straightforward. And we’ll all see what is real “substance above form”.
Action before words. No need for long, convoluted theoretical and technical discourse that no one can or will follow anyway. Such a demonstration is something that everybody can engage and benefit from in a practical way, long after the competition is over. (we take side bets… hee-hee) Everybody can takeaway what is most useful for themselves.
It can be at no cost to yourself eg if you are prepared to use foreign equities like USA/UK. We will sponsor the cost of the contest. It is for the benefit of SHC members. Consider it a Social Enterprise.
Now, isn’t that a good idea?
Andrew Kuan,
What is a “realised prize”? Why at the D n D? What has it got to do with Scorebot?
DennisH,
Don’t target me lah. I don’t have the money to trade or speculate.
Ok, keep my prize on hold. I might collect it one day, as long as you don’t ‘put me in suspenders or on suspension’ Hehehe.
Mary @ #100
I told Jie that I am no good at rembering people.
Discerning as I am, I don’t invite claws from just anyone. That is why I may need a poster to remind me who is clawing whom. Normally only celebrities like tu’ and A.
The prize is an ATM worth $2,960 +++++ and no frozen claws. Or we can take it off for free from the papers?
That’s your first tough trading decision that can bring you lifetime of Ample Time and Money.
Hee-hee
KTWong,
OK, if it’s a prize, then it must mean that I don’t have to put in a single cent right?
So, who’s going to be the godfather who is going to put in the money for me? You? DennisHar? A sugar daddy??
Has the other person who has won a prize, collected hers yet? I would like to hear her views.
Ok, gotta go visit my mahmah now.
Byeeee.
KT at # 111
1) No thanks to day trading. Opportunity cost advises me to stay my course of value investing.
2) Like to provide arrow straight answers to the questions I asked at #74.
Hi Mary at #112
I was suggesting that you may win a realized prize during th coming SHC 2nd D&D.
One in five/six chances!
A realized prize refers to something tangible and of value to you could obtain benefits.
I must be fair to Dennis the Ha-Ha
Although I joke, I am personally very grateful for his assistance. He is a professional trader of repute with many years of hard-core experience. If I didn’t make out that this is a Social Enterprise and pulled him in on the original Blue Helmet project initially, we will never get a person of his expertise and experience to help out. Money cannot always buy talent of exceptional caliber.
I have tried recuiting people of talent for almost half a year. Inspite of my not- inconsiderable network and oozing personality, it was not easy. Successful investors and traders are all true blue capitalists proud of their specialty skils. They are skeptical that the layman can actually trade for a retirement passive income themselves.
Moreover, Dennis is a very private person (like most successful traders) and treasures his own privacy. If you can tap into his experience, you are extremely fortunate.
So it is with me. I don’t want to say who. But I, myself, was inspired by some social ideals to help people. I am still wondering whether it is wrong to be long on this idea.
One thing is clear. The team here is not exactly a group of bimbos selling boops on a bar counter.
So treasure this window of opportunity whilst we still believe in this ideal.
A realized prize refers to an award that has value. You could obtain benefits from it.
Those donated “prizes” during our coming 2nd SHC D&D are examples of awards with value to participants.
Hi KT at #111
What is value trading, something newly coined?
Hi Mary
One suggestion to the offer by KT at #114.
1) Take his “prize” offer and let his ATM does everything for you for one month of five trades just as KT was throwing his gauntlets at #104 para 5.
Reap whatever money that comes along as long as you do not need to put up any money or sign any legal undertaking to top-up or have any financial liability.
2)Take this a chance to learn and gain without financial cost and little/no time since the ATM runs for you.
3) Then share with us your experience next month on 23 April 2008, and perhaps your tangible and intangible benefits too.
That action speaks loudest than all the day trading talks and long long debate(s).
Mary #113 “Don’t target me lah”. Sori if you have that feeling.
Lets stop for now.
Claim your food and coffee as you want
but not too long as I may not have the time.
For your info. I am planning a 15/20 Mins. Stock Clinic session using T/A. You name your Stock(SGX) and I tell you the story at a Price negotiable.
Welcome, DennisH
Hi Dennis at #121
May I name three for you to tell the stories:
a) Challenger
b) SGX and
c) YZJ.
Cheers,
AndrewK #122 are you expecting me to post here. I don’t think this platform can directly support a Chart display. A picture speaks a thousand words.
But don’t worry, there is always a way.
Now the deal. Can you also put in your #119 “What is value trading, something newly coined?” on
a) Challenger b) SGX and c) YZJ.
What to expect from HERE:
1) The longest thread in the Making on SHC forum. May be there is a Prize to be won.
2) A social community in ACTION.
3) to benefit only those on this thread.
4) to see law enforcer identify.
5) to see who can be the real PR.
Andrewk, KT and SHCians what are your comments.
DennisH
Hi Dennis
1) I was asking KT at # 111 that question on value trading he mentioned.
Was that a new coined term?
2) Tell us your stories about the 3 stocks listed in SGX.
Narrations in this thread with 3 to 5 pointers for each stock will do.
3)Link the charts with web links.
#123 can we add DennisT here…..
…the impossible.
See KT #111 para 2, his mention of value trading.
Dear AndrewK,
#124 are you prepared to take my offer on #123.
If you want me to give you a Narrations in this thread. I am going to disappoint you with just Up, Down or Sideway and may be no setup, on trigger, no confirmation etc just to confuse you.
DennisH
Andrewk #124 3)Link the charts with web links. Yes possible if the modulator as I say in #123(4) is giving us the OK.
DennisH
Hi Dennis at #66 and #123 to #125
1) Perhaps, in the first instance, you like to share MACD, MACDH, RSI and EMA which you mentioned under #66 for the three stocks:
a) Challenger, b) SGX and c) YZJ
2) Show us your TA analysis of the four terms you mentioned : MACD, MACDH, RSI and EMA
3) Provide links to the charts through the web.
I am keen to learn.
Dear Dennis at # 127. (no offer lah!)
Hope this clarified: it is not me who introduced “value trading”, it is KT at #111.
Was asking KT to tell/teach us what is “value trading”.
Still waiting for KT’s response for the meaning of “value trading”.
AndrewK see me at scorebot and I will personally share it with you. No problems if that is what you want.
You name any Indicators, My system will do magic and pop its out. You want to have your own EA also can subject to conditions.
If you have your own prefer magic numbers let me know and I can also do it for YOU at FOC.
DennisH
AndrewK #130 so let be clarify you are only at Value Investing.
DennisH
Thanks, Dennis at #131, for your kind offer to share with me at Scorebot. Will advise you when I am going there next.
2) I was requesting for your sharing of 4 pointers you mentioned under#66.
Would you try just one counter : SGX or YZJ.
Short and sweet, boleh?
3) what are the conditions for EA ?
AndrewK, EA is part of the ATM which our expert KT is talking. The difference is only on the execution which many may not understand. So you see there must be a condition.
If you are the only interested party WHY do it here.
Come to scorebot and do it over a cup of coffee can also be on me.
If you insist on one. Then you play your part on Value Investing and I will come up with the Timming to benefit all here.
DennisH
Sori AndrewK #132, .. me clarify
Hi Dennis
Can you demonstrate your TA analysis with SGX or YZJ with your four pointers you mentioned under #66.
Am all ears and heart to learn.
Would appreciate not to digress with new introduction, just demonstrate please.
DennisH,
I was joking about collecting my prize. You can give it to anyone who’s interested.
Andrew Kuan,
I have better things to do than to be a guinea pig, thank you. If you are so keen to find out more, you can have the prize and be the guinea pig yourself.
Mary Chan, you are welcome. You may be joking but I must honour my words.
AndrewK, surely not digressing when you see me with my PC. Then lets learn together.
DennisH
Dear Mary
Thank you.
Accept only real cashable prize(s).
2) Involve with things which I have deep knowledge and clear and sound understanding of what are inside, what principles and values, what parameters and formulae used.
3) At the request of some SHCians during dinner fellowship after our flea market on 15 March, I went to Scorebot last Monday (17 March)evening to share my real-life practical experience about Value Investing with them.
4) A summary of my practical experience sharing can be found under ID # 1525 message #6 under thread heading – Singapore National Dish Contest Results.
See you during 2nd SHC D&D on 29 March at The Pines.
Hi Dennis
Welcome you to illustrate either SGX or YZJ.
Or request Mary to pick one for you, Mary please!
AndrewK, Don’t pull Mary in. You illustrate both SGX & YZJ. I will do my part on the timming. Let all happy viewers of this thread benefits all our work.
DennisH
Hi Dennis at 143 and # 122
At yours #122, you were offering to tell a story to Mary at a price negotiable with TA analysis for a stock listed in SGX.
Now at #143 you “arrowed” me do the TA illustrations on SGX and YZJ. Apa macam?
Let all happy viewers view your illustration with either SGX or YZJ based on MACD, MACDH, RSI and EMA mentioned in your #66 or timming (mentioned at 143) – yes?
If not, let us end this discussion on a happy and best wishes note.
Selamat Datang, Selamat Jalan.
AndrewK,
#122 is just for Mary’s info only.
I am not asking Mary to pay for the Clinic session which I don’t think Mary knows what is it all about.
May be the English is poorly constructed. Then I may need to learn proper english from you when you start a English Fellowship program.
#143, I am not asking you to do T/A. There is no mention of T/A. I just say “You illustrate both SGX & YZJ” meaning using Value Investing which is your expertise any problem with it.
#144, No I didn’t say any thing on those indicators. I only say “I will do my part on the timming.” There are so many indicatos which one can use, Hundreds of them. Depending on Traders prospective on Trend, time frame, money management and Risk factors for example.
Don’t try it here just discuss over a cup of coffee at scorebot. Its so much easilier.
We are wasting Terence’s hit rate if its going on like that. Visit my webpage and look for the right email for further discussion.
Why do it when it’s not appreciated. No other SHCians is interested in this subject my friend.
DennisH… don’t understand malay, Datang.
Hi Dennis
Thank you
Best wishes.
Hi Andrew,
You sound as if you are the owner of Scorebot.
Hi AndrewK see you at scorebot on monday. Because of you I will carry my notebook for my meeting at scorebot.
DennisH
Dear Lina
I am not an owner of Scorebot.
Max Ee and Marcus Lau are the current owners of Scorebot. Max came from the same secondary school as me, except I was his senior in school and Red Cross.
We are my friends.
When Max and Narcus found out that I am a former Group CFO & Finance Chairman of two town councils and have lectured Finance at 3 universities, they requested that I conduct Value Investing courses at Scorebot and gave similar talks at the Options Trading Club of Singapore.
I oblige to friends’ good intended requests since young.
Marcus also owns the Greek Restaurant at 27 Bali Lane and an outlet along Beach Road.
Warmest regards
Mary, Dennis, Andrew
I am back after a long and relaxing weekend.
Eh….
What happened here? Didn’t I tell you to behave yourself while uncle is away. Don’t rush for the cookies.
Don’t take things too seriously. It makes one age faster. Learn to laugh at yourself.
Hee-hee.
Dear Dennis
Thank you. Am busy this week.
Am honoured by your kind offer.
Just email to me your TA of the charts will do.
Cheerio !
KTWong. I wasn’t taking anything seriously. Serious. ;-)
KT
It was fun.
But this must end now, UNCLE !
Correction to #149 para 3
We are friends.
Hi Andrew #149,
Thanks for the clarification.
Dear Lina
Not at all.
Cheers,
Mary @ #152
Andrew Is essentially right in #121.
Your prize for naming ATM is for a free ATM session worth $2,960. We want your beautiful poster in return. It’s just a fun exchange. But the value is real. You can but you don’t have to trade. You will still gain much from it.
But sometimes, somethings are not meant to be. Let it pass then. It is really hard with Ample Time and Money. What to do next? And all those guys fighting to date you out. The worse are the Feng Shui lovers. Billion dollar also not enough.
Give fortune the raincheck.
Hee hee
Andrew @ #106 et al
You must be mistaken.
Nobody said anything about day trading in the challenge. In the “Man vs Machine Challenge”, I only proposed 5 minimum trades over one month. Typically, a trader does hundreds of trades per month. We ourselves did two trades (a sell followed by a buy) profitably in an hour when deciding the Singapore National Dish Contest prize alone.
Obviously, there must be a time frame for the contest. We can’t wait for the other party to die before we can declare a winner. Besides, what kind of system are you advocating if it does less than one trade per week? If so, you are mistaking something else for trading.
So that clears the air? Now can we get on to play the game. I hope that you are not trying to beat ATM by talking it to death…. Are you ?
I’ll show you mine, if you show me yours. We’ll see who is long and who is short. In the market, of course.
Hee hee
Andrew @ #120 et al
Andrew asked “what is value trading” whilst championing “value investment” at the same time. They share the same label and have the same roots; but they are not the same thing. IMO. The short and shock of it all is – “Value Investment is NOT SUITABLE for all SHC members.”
Many people, new into hands-on trading and investment, really don’t know the difference. This includes many corporate treasurers which is what makes it really frightening. Value Investment is not for the layman. It is not just about valuation methodology and buying the lowest of the low. It is meant for big sophisticated player with deep pockets, direct access to corporate boardrooms and strong follow-through. In Singapore, few like Spore Inc and Oei Hong Leong comes to mind. Who do you know can buy and sell like them?
Many practising traders and investors alike has abandoned the original purist approach of value investment as being impractical. I remember coming to this conclusion myself with fellow traders and investors in 1980’s. A close reading of the literature is not good enough. Only if one has tried to put VI is into practice will one begin to see the “flaws”.
VI is is all about the “buy” side and says little about markets, timing and sell. For this reason alone it is not complete or useful as a practical trading tool. In other words, “Tak ada system”.
At best it is translated to be a “buy and hold” strategy which is nothing new to a lay investor. For one seeking help for his portfolio, it is rather meaningless to tell him to put into practise what got him into trouble in the first place.
It is like a sad Irish joke.
(Friendly note: Remember I didn’t take advantage of your situation. I put the challenge to let you see the light yourself. It could be an eye opener for all. To try help you. But I guess you know it yourself already. I didn’t even put a wager to the game.
Which is very uncharacteristic of me to walk away from a sure-win. We must be gentle and kind, says Ron. I am trying.
Ah, but for the things I do for friends in the name of friendship….)
Hee-hee
Patrick, anytime if you & I want to raid Scorebot for the $10.90 buffet but pls let me hv at least 12 hours’ advanced notice……..I need to borrow as many turbans from SK Singh as I can.
We will need to tie them up – Dennis H is huge & we need a lot more cloth – after the feast cos they hv been telling us of so many ATMs in there that if we dont rob them, we show no respect.
“If you want Charles to show you his, you must first wear a skirt. Ha..ha..”
No, Lina, we dont wear skirts to stand next to each other at the range……..you’re cordially invited to a preview to watch & learn, first-hand, that the longest doesnt necessarily shoot the farthest…….
Tim,
Bring turbans and sunglasses if we are not paying for what we eat. Dennis and KT will surely “hantam” us until we “powtow” and “aw bak ka”
Anyone want to join in the challenge for a sumptious Buffet lunch @ $10.90 on this Saturday at 11 am at Bali Lane??
Tim @ #160
Did you see us on TV tonight. It will be news tomorrow. We were having a meeting when we heard about the gas attack at Golden Landmark near to Scorebot. Could it be Dennis? We still have to hear from him. Hee hee
The whole building was cordoned off by civil defence and we saw people brought out in stretchers coughing and sneezing badly.
Unfortunately, the market was closed by then. If the market suspects that Mat Selamat is trying to send us a message, the local market will sell off in overdrive first.
So be ready to hedge the market or go short with CFD tomorrow at the opening bell. It won’t go up on the news. Don’t sell off your stocks. Just use CFDs. They are much more flexible and cost effective. With 5 times leverage you can assume any short position very easily.
This is a good example where our house strategy “long stocks; short CFD” comes in extremely handy. No ATM necessary here.
Pat @ #161
We don’t hantam. Too primitive. No style and no profit.
Here’s how we’ll do it. Short the market first.
Then set Dennis at you in confined space. And announce to the world that you are victims of a second gas attack.
Hi Tim,
You going to demonstrate? Time and place?
AndrewK, I bring along my notebook yesterday at scorebot. But unfortunately did not see you. Will meet U another day.
Together we will achieve MORE… DennisH
No. no, no Patrick, we’re gentlemen brought up in the ah yew pek era to know that there’s never a free lunch….we’ll each pay $10.90.
Seriously, no matter hw many sunglasses you hide yrself behind & no matter how many turbans you pile on top, you cant hide yr signature tummy which stands out proudly as a mark of well-being.
Yes, we’ll tie KT & DennisH together, face-2-face but more importantly, mouth-2-mouth and heeee, let them smooch till ““aw bak ka” and then we dump them at lau pasat……..
Hi Wong KT/Dennis Har /others,
I had 2 investments from my 26yrs.of savings and is waiting for my CPF to mature.
(i) Aviva Egg – promise anything lower than 2.5% will return CPF $ back to CPF.
(ii)OCBC structured 5 yr,fixed deposits”- after one yr.
Both have returned the money to me and other customers because the banks are not making profit due to world economic situatns esp. the sub prime rate ,impending US recession, etc.and force investors to take back their capital and interests.
I would like to invest my savings in low risk eg.FDs and structured fixed FDs. with low interest but principal still guaranteed.
Not into shares,unit trust,bonds,forex where the risks are much higher and the interests are much greater and it is unpredictable thru its ups and down due to world events.
I would rather have less interests but guaranteed returns rather than living in a life of misery.
Anyone knows which bank offers reasonable/good low interest in FDs or structured FDs ?
Need your advice/suggestions too.
Thanks and awaiting yr replies.
Steven
For the highly conservative, you can consider NTUC Thrift savings account that pays 2% per annum if savings is via monthly GIRO. I think you need to be an NTUC shareholder or a union member. You can google and find out more.
Joy
Thanks Joy.
Hi Steven,
Aussie $ paying good FD interest rate, anywhere from 7% to 8%. If you are a premier customer you can get better rates. Even for smaller amounts, the interest rate will still be better than placing your money in S$. You can check with the local banks. If you are more adventurous, you can invest in dual currency. But I think you want it very very SAFE, right?
Hi Steven Chan,
I would be careful about any structured deposit. When they say the principal is guaranteed, is it before or after payment of any fees, management, administration, performance or whatever?
Have deep knowledge and good/sound understanding, Steven.
Make some effort to learn, do not just listen to the sales or admin staff/officers,usually they perform their tasks to meet company’s objectives.
It is your money, do homework and build confidence through some hard work. It pays!
What Charles said is true too. Be your own money manager, it is your money.
Lina gave some valid suggestions, it is you who must decide after learning and understanding.
Lina @ #170
Keeping a naked deposit on a high interest bearing currency is naive and not a good idea. It is like musical chairs. If the music stops on your lap you will lose big time. Remember UK sterling? You need to know how and what to manage.
Keeping AUD deposits for interest rates is just like keeping stocks for dividends in the long term. You must watch the downside with forex. Hedge if you think that the currency is going sideways and oversell to short if you are bearish.
It is very easy to do this. Forex have 200 times leverage. If you setup a quasi hedge in AUD/USD. You only need to short $1K for $200K deposit. Note: this is not a perfect hedge as you are not right on the cross for AUD/SGD. But it will efficiently track the major adverse movements against your AUD deposits. The ones that will really jeopardize your deposit performance in the long run.
If you are perfectly hedge you will still make your 7% no matter what happens. If you are right on the short AUD, you will even make money in a bearish AUD market.
With ATM, it is even easier. Just switch and sleep. Turn the ATM on to watch the downside on your currency deposit, set your deposit amount and then never have any worries for the rest of your life.
Surprise! You may even make more money on your ATM shorting AUD then your 7% interest rates. Double fortune. Hee-hee
Steven @ # 167
In this era of high inflation rates and low interest rates, doing FD is as well as doing nothing. Guarantee deposits is just that. They eventually will return your deposits to you and nothing else. If you beleive that they will do much better for you then you will also believe that your chicken will lay golden eggs. It is usually worse than FD. Consider it is a “free” deposit box. What you put in is what you take out.
What your capital protected money manager does is to gamble with your funds. If they make money, they typically keep the lion share for themselves. The best and brightest of traders are in high risk/return hedge funds. The rest trade like chickens. The chicken feed that they make, if any, is all but eaten by chickens.
All financial instruments have risk and return. Some high, some low. The difference between winning or losing is how you manage your money. There are many ways to make (and lose) big money. But standing still with, IMO a 10% inflation gap, you are sure to be poorer by the day. Sure to lose or risk to win. Your choice.
Lina’s suggestion is also good. Put in AUD deposits for 7 to 8%. For $100K, hedge the equivalent $1K in AUD/USD. If you do not want to watch the market then get something like ATM to watch for you. Simple and effortless. IMO, there is much lower risk/return for your investments and yu can still stand to make a lot of money with the downside risk at, say, 5% pa.
If you are not prepared to engage in financial investments then start something like a risk-free business in the SHC Flea Market. If you succeed and grow, you won’t have to worry about money anymore. If you want to go down this road, take the opportunity offerd by Scorebot before the sponsorship runs out.
Hi James,
My two cents worth!!!
I got this two news from the local papers which interest both you and me to share.
Its real!!!!!.
Refer to Strait Time dd: 6 April 2008, I believe many who is looking for answer in the investment column would have seen this, it states:
I) 10 ways to overcome the shrinking dollars: (If you wnat a copy, I’ve in my procession).
1) Cut down spending, live within your means
2) Try to save 20% of your pay or more.
3) Do not be overly conservative
4) Don’t rely solely on guaranteed products.
5) Save regularly via an investment platform
6) Take on sensible level of investment risk.
7) Invest for returns that beat inflation.
8) Understand the power of compounding.
9) Invest in asset classes that appreicate.
10) Limit exposure to depreciating assest.
How much will your eg: S$10,000 in today’s value be worth at the different rates over time?
Inflation rate per annum
Years 2% 3% 4% 5%
5 $9,039 $8,587 $8,154 $7,738
10 $8,171 $7,374 $6,648 $5,987
15 $7,386 $6,333 $5,421 $4,633
20 $6,676 $5,438 $4,420 $3,585
The figure shows that in just 20 years of a 2% inflation per annum would reduce the purchasing power of $10,000 to $6,676.
At 5% inflation, the purchasing power of $10,000 would be reduced to $3,585.
Source: New Independent.
II) Another pieces fo news from today, dd: 6th April 2008
Inflation to rise..and fall
Consuer prices may rise more than 6.5% in the Six(6) months of this year, Trade and Industry Minsiter Lim Hng Kiang warned yesterday, but he added that the inflation rate…. Singapore’s inflation rate hit its highest level in 26 years, climbing to 6.6% in January…
Source : CHANNEL NEWSASIA
Hope the above can be of help and give a clearer picture where you are and give a very vivid picture if you do not make your money work harder for you, you’ll always a slave to them.
Let meet up and explore what are the opportunity to be Master of your money?
Master of money means being able to make or earn returns more than what the current inflation rate and have extra to keep for raining days safely!!! Is 10 to 15% a good number to rest upon?
For more detail, let catch up for a no obligation sharing this Wednesday or Thursday at 2 or 4 pm at Raffles place over coffee.
Others who read this can also meet up. Don’t be a SLAVE but MASTER of your MONIES.
I can be contacted at this no:
Hp: (65) 90271398
Regards
Gibson Tan
Hi retirees / others,
Went round surveying the LOW RISK Structured Deposits Plans of Citibank,OUB,Malayan Banking ,OCBO, DBS etc.. and found
this most attractive investment plan by OCBC called the 3.5 yr SGD Equity -Linked Structured Deposits Fact sheet
( EL S2306008 A ) gives the best returns.
Potential interests up to 4.5 % linked to daily performance of blue chip shares of 4 giant companies, Capitaland Ltd, Keppel Corpn, SembCorp Marine Ltd and Spore Telecoms Ltd.
The Principal is 100% protected if held to maturity.
Warning:-Shd there be early withdrawal,there is a penalty fee of market rate %.
Instead of locking up the cash in CPF which pays only 2.5% per annum for ordinary accounts,the oCBC plan gives much more in return , up to 4.5% based on daily performance of the 4 companies and the interest is paid every 1/2 yr.
Ensure you have sufficient savings to be LOCKED up for 3.5 yrs before you embark on this investment plan and sufficient cash for yr expenditure for 3.5 yrs too if you cannot withdraw money from CPF yet.
I forsee with the IRs of both Marina Bay and Sentosa coming up in a few yrs time, the chances of making a profit is even better.
For more details, pls. visit the financial consultants of OCBC for a detailed description of the plan before you start investing. The promotion of this plan is ending soon.
I am NOT trying to influence you but this plan reaps more benefits than holding our cash in OA in CPF.esp. for retirees like us.
However, be prepared mentally to face the LOW risk too.
SC
Steven @ #176
Very good effort. Now we are really checking out our reitirement financing options.
What the house, OCBC does here is possibly to buy the underlying shares and trade (for an institution they can trade both long short; they can write options and loan scripts) them for a profit besides taking in the dividend. In return, they manage your fund and pay you back. I would guess internally they are looking for a minimum ROI of 15% pa (easy to achieve for them) and potentially pay you up to a max of 4.5% pa.
Let’s now critically examine the return
“Potential interests up to 4.5 % linked to daily performance of blue chip shares of 4 giant companies, Capitaland Ltd, Keppel Corpn, SembCorp Marine Ltd and Spore Telecoms Ltd.”
This is my personal view.
These four companies are in the “same stable”. Although they have excellent prospects over the long term, say, 5 to 10 years, they don’t necessarily perform every year. Such companies have mega projects and on a year time frame they swing into a planting to harvest mode. The years of planting means less return for the particular company. When you stack out only four companies in the same stable then the chance of any particular year within the next 3.5 years span of averaging out to a low return of, say, 1.5 to 2.5% median is high. Remember we still have Tony’s worst 30 years recession prediction to run out.
I give this a 2% pa ROI rating.
Looks like we will still have to eat out more often for free at Annalakshmi for the next 3.5 years at this rate.
Hi Wong KT,
…Looks like we will still have to eat out more often for free at Annalakshmi for the next 3.5 years at this rate.
LKY says there is no such thing as FREE .
You must work sweat and tears for $$$.
Who says eating at Annalakshmi is free? It is up to you to donate as much as possible.
Annalakshmi is unlike the same as the Chinese Kwan Yin temple at River Valley Road where you can eat vegetarian food for FREE for lunch and/or dinner.
And KT, if you q up to eat them free you can save lots of $$$ in 3.5yrs. LOL! Enough to open another NEW outlet with its name as Square Box which rival all other Starbucks Coffee, Coffee Beans and TCC.
Time to bring my neighbour’s dog for his morning “kai kai”.
SC
Steven @ # 178
“Annalakshmi is unlike the same as the Chinese Kwan Yin temple at River Valley Road where you can eat vegetarian food for FREE for lunch and/or dinner.”
Actually, all of them have the same model notwithstanding whether they come with funny slogans and a fancy website.
You are suppose to donate money to their cause. Actually, the big bucks come when the sponsors pitch in to support the “free” soup kitchens. The rich think that they have paid for their karma to the Beyond.
Ultimate human intentions are normally unfanthomable. Including those who run the foundations.
Many charities and NPO (non-profit org)are now under investigation and audit. For as many noble causes out there, there could be another of ye ole “No Kidney for Free” foundation. They are still not free.
Nothing can be for certain, except that there will be more happy foundations in the Happy Everlasting in a tax shelter island somewhere in the middle of nowhere. On the other hand, we do not want to be indebted to noble causes.
I see it this way. If I get a good meal, I’ll pay for its market worth. I just want to leave this earth with a zero sum game to my name.
“Owe and owed none. Beheld and beholden to no one”.
Hi WongKT,
…I see it this way. If I get a good meal, I’ll pay for its market worth. I just want to leave this earth with a zero sum game to my name. ….“Owe and owed none. Beheld and beholden to no one”.
Go ahead.No need to broadcast to the whole world.
Hi all,
To share, now want to invest, is NOT the right time with sub prime and the impending US recession and what’s not.
I happen to meet and was told by a Sporean banker I met at Changi airport on business assignment to Taiwan that to leave the savings in CASH at the moment although the interest is V. Miserable
Now the stock market is always up and down and wait for it “SLOWLY” to stabilize.
He told me NOT to speculate in forex( HIGH RISK also entails HIGH INTEREST of 8.88% offered by RHB etc.) Sounds attractive though esp. the savings from own and CPF is meant for a good retirement time.
My 5 pennies worth
Steven @ #181
I respect your point of view but I have to differ.
Quickly on the RHB, check the terms carefully. If memory serves me right, it is something like 8% for the first 3 months for a 5+5 years tie-in. It is just a “cheap-shot” gimmick and comes back down to the same thing Net Present Value.
I don’t believe any real banker would have given that “Cash” advice unless he has totally no confidence in the banking industry. The worst advice he could have given is to ask you to put in FD for 0.8% pa. It is not sensible to put cash under the pillow.
With most members’s PIG (Personal Inflation Gap) running more than -10%, you have no choice but to do something to sustain your wealth and lifestyle. Unless you are winding down for social welfare, you can
(a) Get into your own business of which SHC flea market program is the best way for members
(b) Alternative investments from art, property to financials (equities, bonds, trusts, forex, indexes etc)
(c) 2nd home abroad. Spend quarter of your time there to balance your budget. At the same time, shift your risk base by moving your insurance and long term medical there.
(d) Work till you die. I can’t imagine that anyone wants to flip burgers to their grave. But that’s only me. The last of the burger flippers.
If this comes down to my social contract, I will cut my losses and join Ter. We’ll line dance in PatPong with nubile virgins and watch you guys flip burgers here.
(e) Keep going back to Anna and eat for free. Hee-hee. I picked this one up from you.
Do nothing now and you will be flying blind, without autopilot, no GPS, last drop of fuel and no hands at the wheel into the eye of the storm.
Hi Wong KT,
Yoo Hoo,where are you ?
Not a Yelp from you since the Global financial meltdown.
Remember, you once told me you had programmed 10 “ATMS” at your home and you can easily retrieve money from any of them.
Whatever happens to them ?
I am interested to hire one from you.
NST . under Prime , 15 Mar,Sporeans SHUN stocks for bank deposits.Better be safe than sorry!
Safest option now is either savings or fixed deposits.
However, the interest rate is MISERABLY low.
On average between different local banks,
Before, 2% , Now 0.25% . Almost negligible.
Any comments or better suggestions ?
Not nice to rub in when theings are not going one’s way.
More than a year ago, not persuaded by his financial model and thet the ATM was the way to go, I said so.
Today, the financial industry is in tatters with few traders spared. But to my mind, he will recover and come back stronger……..and more circumspect.
Meanwhile, we shd all wish him well.
Hi Tim,
Thanks for your advice.
Tim, you seem to have LOTS of time ; sebuk sebuk with SHC. Btw, are you working from home?
Wong KT, use to be a very vocal on nvestments. However,after a long time almost a yr,I did not hear from him.
I was CURIOUS and wonder where he has “disappear” to ?
Anyone has a clue?