I have always been curious about anything and everything. My latest curiosity is the headlines in our local media and the government asking Singaporeans to use food trays and return these food trays to designated areas after eating. There are many view points on why, how and what are the benefits. Am sure you have your talking points. Share it then, maybe we will come up with something more workable.
Just a short while ago, I was eating in my local kopitiam. I was observing the cleaner. At the table and with a tray, she selected certain bowls and pour all the similar food together and put them into a bigger bowl. Suddenly it strikes me that what a waste if we were to put everything on a tray and send it to the disposal bin. Could she have sorted out the food, there is always spare meat in a fish, soup is rarely finished and there is always plenty of sauce left. Someone could have enjoyed the remainder. i suddenly thought it would not be a good idea to return our food trays.
Mind you, I support returning of food trays, but this observation gives me second thoughts.
What ideas do you have?
Terence Seah
Before we change the existing norrm of clearing the tables we have to look at the practicality of removing the crokery spoons,forks, the food remnants etc and the ways practised by the cleaners.
In a fast food chain like SUBWAY. there is no hassle in clearing the table. But at a hawker centre, coffee shop, the procedure is more messy. Also,Terence you are assuming that the cleaners will consume the food colleted. It may not be the case. The swill may be used as animal feed.
In addition, the culture of changing the habit has to be inculcated.
1. Returning food trays/bowls etc after eating is a good habit to inculcate and the willingness to do it shows a considerate character.
2. I think cleaning companies forbid their cleaners from taking food from leftover food on the tables. They have their reasons but i am in favour of allowing the table cleaners to take whatever food they want from the leftovers when they are clearing the tables. The reasons being it cuts down on food wastage and it is an indirect way of helping to ‘feed the hungry’ which is such a charitable act.
3. If cleaners are allowed to take the leftover food on the table, it may help develop a culture of neat eating – i.e. patrons eat neatly and leave their leftover food neatly for the cleaner or whoever is in need of food. * When we return trays, we make sure the leftover food * is sitting neatly in the bowls/plates …
* (assuming the leftovers are good enough to be eaten – not spit out bits)
Having observed how tedious the chore is of clearing and cleaning table after table by an often disgruntled cleaner, I can see how the newly introduced culture of clearing our own trays will benefit everyone. Firstly, for the cleaners, all they have to do is to be at the collection point to sort out the glasses, plates, cutlery and disposable of leftover food and drink cans. For the patrons, it’ll mean a clean table as diners will keep all the mess within their trays.
I fully support this!
Cheers
Ros
I don’t know how anyone can even think that uneaten food left at the table is suitable for human consumption! Do we presume that we have lowly-paid, starving old people working at clearing tables who are fit only to eat what paying customers discard (NOT thoughtfully left behind for the next human being to eat)? I think if anything need to change in our culture, it starts with us thinking of everybody as a human being of equal stamdomg to ourselves and worthy of being accorded thoughtful consideration, dignity and some respect. Please!
p.s. I think “Ros” made a good point. It is do-able :)
Hi Joanne,
I am surprised and in fact alarmed that someone can suggest ‘sharing’ leftover to other people. This is irresponsible to the community at large.
When we consume food it will be contaminated by trillions of bacteria from our saliva. Any person who partake in the sharing of food MAY be infected by diseases as the sharer may be a carrier of whatever diseases which we have no way to know. Different people have different level of immune system – it may not cause problem to another however someone who is elderly may be more susceptible.
Do not forget there is a rule to commercial caterers (especially restaurants) that all foods must be throws away after 4 hours from the time it is cooked or else they will receive heavy penalty. Any food at room temperature will start to attract bacteria and after a certain point of time (most probably 2 to 4 hours) it will be unhealthy to consume.
Years ago when we were still together (10 of us – brothers & sisters) I always reminded my brothers and sisters do not take more than you can consume. If still any leftovers throw away – do not leave it or else my mum like most mum will finish all the leftovers.
It’s nice to be caring but think of the consequences before you act. I believe we are educated enough to understand some common sense. Sometime you need to be cruel in order to be caring and kind.
During army days, unfinished food like bones was dump to the bin near the washing point. We wash our own plate fork and spoon. Is’t good idea to have a campaign of bringing own tingkat to do the same.? This was brought up almost a decade ago when the “return your own tray campaing” introduced at the newly renovated zion rd followed by adam rd hawker centre failed. Cleaners are still needed to clear the tables of leftovers and spilled water/soup on the tables… Did anyone seen people taking out tissue paper and sweep all these stuffs onto the floor.? Who is going to maintain the cleaniness of the floor.?
This year “return your own tray campaing” was introduced to 9 hawker centre and the rest for the next two years. Not sure whether those new hawker centre will be design to accomodate the return tray systems. Can this campaign help reduce the number of cleaners required.? Will this help educate one to be civic minded and be more graceful.? I hope all living in sg will do their part when eating at the hawker centre and to not create another problem. Anyone to guess how much it cost for this nation wide campaign.? If this campaign is a success, then money is well spend.
Here we go! Shc conversation! :)
Stay Healthy! Be Happy! :)
#4, # 5
Read post carefully. The point here is : the cleaner wants to take the leftover food. (Should diners do good by letting them have it?). Theme: povery & hunger.
No use preaching about germs and bacteria to the poor & hungry…….unless YOU can fill their stomachs.
And do not presume that leftover food is dirty. Out of three pieces of toast, i eat one and leave behind two pieces. My leftovers, if taken by a cleaner, are as clean as the piece in my tummy.
It is easy to spot, if we look carefully, human scavengers around hawker centres, markets, garbage bins… even in affluent S’pore.
i think we can change the mindset – re-design the tables instead – by make 2 containers in the centre or by the side so that the leftover food can be scrapped into and the plates, cutlery can be “emptied” onto the other. The manpower needed would be to replace the containers periodically and send for washing or disposal. The diners need not have to go to the tray return area. Anyone think it’s workable?? :)
Hi Inez,
Innovative idea, creative though. Never rule out any ideas. No need to go to the tray collection centre. Sounds like a total redesign of the dining table.
In the tray removal concept, diners have to put every bowl, plate, fork and remaining food on the tray and send the tray to the collection point. Just been thinking, what do we do with the fish bones, the crab shells, the prawn heads, the chicken skin and the bak kut the bones. We put them on the table, right? Means we have to pick these up, and put them on a bowl and tray. Gee, pick up all the small pieces of chicken feet bones? Easy to spit out, but difficult to pick up. Unlike a restaurant, we usually have only one bowl or plate in a food court. The stall holders won’t give us a spare plate.
I was having a buffet Sri Lankan breakfast this morning in Colombo. After finishing each plate, I will go for another serving. When I walk away, the waiter would quickly remove the finished plate. So my table is always clean, ready for another customer if necessary. So, maybe an idea to give more spare bowls or plates.
The idea of tray removal is to save on manpower. Anybody has the calculation for manpoower savings?
Terence Seah
FIRST, we have to queue up to buy our food. The line can be 5 to 10 persons or maybe more. Waiting for half an hour in line is common. Then we have to balance our hot soup precariously on the tray, braving the sea of people while searching for a seat. Finally we found a seat, never mind the dirty bowls and slimy remains strewn all over the table.
We should not be complaining if this was a no cost or low cost meal. But, each of the hungry soul is paying $5 or more for an ordinary meal. With a family of 4, this is easily $30, not a negligible amount for an average income earner. Now they want us to return the used bowls and plates after eating. What next? Shall we also wash them?
I am all for hygiene and cleanliness.
Isn’t it the cost of hiring cleaners already factored in when we are charged a hefty price for our food? Shouldn’t there be a corresponding reduction in price when we have to do more “self-service”? Why is it that consumers are always short-changed because of the inadequacy and inefficiency of service providers and the authorities-in-charge?
In the name of goodwill and graciousness, shall we also ask our prosperous and pompous country men in posh restaurants to return utensils to the kitchen after eating?
@ #7
You proved my point in your first paragraph: Our cleaners are a class of worker like any other, not the “poor and hungry” waiting to eat crumbs (detritus)off our tables.
With regard to para 2, the poor and hungry should still not eat germs and bacteria and I do do my share of feeding the needy, among other things.
Para 3 – detritus left on tables may not presumed to be left behind for the next person’s meal (including yourself).
And para 4 – do bring your remaining toasts to the bin scavenger and offer them to him/her with a smile.
p.s. Thank you, Steven Ng. :)
I read with interest the different viewpoints on the tray return.
Whatever food left on the plate etc will contain bacteria and saliva from the person eating it, so it is absolutely not hygienic to let someone else to finish it.
By changing the table design with 2 containers next to or even built in the table will make many people uncomfortable.
Why? I cannot imagine eating at the table, knowing the bin is just there with who know what is already in it. This will totally spoil my appetite as I feel as if I am eating next to a garbage bin, which is what it is.
If we are suppose to return our trays, how big is the counter? Imagine 10 patrons bringing their trays to the station and have no where to place them and have to wait for the cleaners to clear stuff in order to make room for more trays coming in.
The station will have to be big enough to handle return trays efficiently and not make patrons wait for long as they are trying to do the rite thing.
So, will this return tray work in a food court, hawker stalls? I don’t think so, unlike in a fast food restaurant where the things you empty into the bin is the paper placemat, the wrapper etc which is easy and not tedious or messy compared to our bowls with remaining soup and stuff or our plates of remainder chop suey.
Even fast food patrons may be too lazy or can’t be bothered to return the tray. But, it is within the restaurant, the staff can easily clear the tables for the next customer.
How can this be labor cost savings when we want and encourage the still active seniors to continue to work, whether to pass time, make some income or both?
The mind boggles.
Here, we are discussing how workable is the removal of bowls and trays to a centralised location works in, say, a foodcourt. Already we read that to work, the centralised collection should be equipped fast enough and convenient enough. I remembered in Singapore, sometime in the past, some food courts serve food using only disposals plates, forks and spoons. The process was eat and throw. Guess the thinkers have to consider if it is suitable to use disposables eg with meat chops, chickens with bones. Flimsy forks and knives. Would the centralised collection prefer to do dish washing or just as a collection point for throw away plates?
Hi Joanne #4 and Steven #5, I would think no one would consciously let others eat our food remains, if we know we had dipped our spoons in the soup bowl throughout the dinner. Even my son objects, if if I do it once during home dinner.
But sometimes I cannot resist seeing my next table walking aways and there are still two chicken wings left on the plate. Very often, I see couples order a fried kway teow, only to leave it untouched because it has too much oil, too sweet or they are just full. These diners know that the remainer is still edible but dare not ask for fear of offending the takers.
How often many people leave behind a half eaten fish. We take the chunks but leave plenty of meat behind. Ah Hah, you might like to know I love fish head, something many rich and wealthy would leave behind.
Perhaps, soups may not be suitable. Mind you, if you look at many tze char stalls, the waiters do isolate the still intact remains, and put them on a plate to eat later on. Just make hot and they are just as tasty. We have become very effluent and won’t dare to think of eating someone else food remains. Well, quite often I do eye the piece of fried chicken or the left behind piece of bak kut teh rib. This said, not many people can afford the tasty piece of crab flippers or the french fries from the western corner.
This discussion may be a deviation from “removal of trays” feasibility. They are related. I just feel sad that all the food goes down the drain while there are others hungry and looking.
Please continue giving your feedback. No view or suggestion is a bad view. It’s a Sunday.
Terence Seah
I have always practised giving away food that i think i cant finish to any of the cleaners who is willing to take it. No, its not left overs but excess. Sometimes when i order a kaya toast and there are too many pieces or i buy a packet of buns thst comes in a six piece pack and can only eat two, i will pack the excess in a bag and when the cleaners pass by me, i will give them the food.
My late husband had a habit of clearing his own tray, used tissue paper to wipe the table he sat at clean for the next user. And my children was always reminded to do the same :) I know the cleaners are paid to do the job but when it is the busy time od the day, table are not cleared quickly enough.
Cheers
Carly
Oh and i pack the food before I start eating :)
Cheers
Carly
I think it’s more productive to convince the environment and the healthy ministry to allow the caterers to ‘share’ their leftovers instead of throwing away after 4 hours. I believe the volume of throwaways are much much greater than you encountered in our friendly hawkers centres.
Definitely their foods look nice and maybe still edible and can be distributed to the needy and charity organizations like what they do with the ‘no so fresh’ breads and vegetables.
Unfortunately it seem no one want to take risk with foods as their ‘use by date’ are too short and risking the health of others is no laughing matter.
Recently I discovered that I have sign of initial IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) after reading some articles on the internet. Quickly I paid a visit to a outpatient speciallist clinic and was prescribe to consume about 250 billions daily of good bacteria for 8 weeks to flush the ‘corrupted’ bacteria in the gut.
After 4 weeks my body start aching all over so I have to stop taking it. Was told by the doctor later on that every person body ecosystem is different and any fusion of other bacteria even good one may still upset the balance if it is too many. Luckily I have already show sign of improvement to IBS.
Our body immune system is such a delicate balance – different bacteria interact with each other to avoid any group causing chaos to our body even with good ones.
We try to be caring and kind to other people but if that behavior may cause unintended risks let’s follow the norm as the health of other people is paramount – not your charitable acts / feelings or whatever even they are in dire straits of hunger. Give them fresh food and not leftover if you have intense desire to help them.
By the way if you think the portion is too big, ask for a smaller portion. Be friendly to our Earth for the next generation by cutting down wastages. :)
After reading all the interesting feedback, an idea just came to mind. Perhaps, the customers should be given a choice i.e. to return the tray to the designated location or leave it to the cleaners to do the job for them.
Of course, there should be a cost to differentiate between the two choices. For someone who chose to return the tray, he gets 50cents reimbursement. For those who don’t, he pays 50 cents more. If the cleaner clears 100 trays a day, that
works out to $50 per day, which means on a 6-day week, the
total collection is about $1200. If the cleaner is paid $1000 pm, that still leaves about $200 or 20% to cover the
Operator’s overheads.
One possible way is to faciliate the reimbursement is to go along the line of the shopping cart at IMM. When you take the tray, you put in a coin; when you return, you get the coin back.
The Authority should be able to come up with a suitable process and infrastructure to facilitate a smooth flow for the tray returns. If they can’t, they can always engage me as their professional consultant, for a fee, of course.
I hope Terence does not interpret this as advertising my professional services. Seriously, I am a Retiree.
Hi Terence #13
Your first paragraph touching on the use of disposals needs a bit of qualification. Not only are the disposables clumsy to use as they are too soft but also it is an environmental issue. If they are disposed at the landfill,they are not easily biodegradable, they may be there for hundreds of years. It has been reported that plastic bags that are floating in the seas can cause deaths to marine lives. The turtles cannot see the difference between a plastic bag and a jellyfish.
Hi DanielChan #10
The charge of $5 per meal may have factored in the cost of providing cleaners. I understand that most of the cleaners are old people or foreigners. Generally they are lowly paid. The main chunk of costs is due to the rent. I have seen a mee stall runnig a one-man show. The business was good, yet he gave up the stall.
I fully agree with P K Ng (aka Steven Ng) Point 5, that all leftover food should not be eaten at all.
What if the cleaner is a Muslim.
We must also be sensitive to our Muslim friends.
Only HALAL food please.
I have seen cleaner eating plain bread and kopi for their meal. Their pay is so low, there are there almost every
day of the week & they can hardly meet end need.
Maybe give our fellow cleaner a small tips or token so that
they can use this to buy for themselves a good decent meal
and no leftover food please.
A boring guy, in a boring Sunday, reading a boring topic, try to make it more boring by writing something.
From the above 19 comments – I found some are quite funny:
To let cleaners allowed to take the leftover food.
– ????, ????. it is a kind of respect. So the food no matter they are leftover or exceed, should not expect the other to take them for you to make you feel you are not wasting the food. Further more, Steven Ng has raised a very practical item – every person body ecosystem is different and any fusion of other bacteria even good one may still upset the balance if it is too many. I don’t know this, thanks Steven.
So if those people who don’t want to waste food, next time when you visit a food court, don’t order anything you cannot finish. You should go around to see who cannot finish their food which you like, ask for them. If you really do this. tell me, whenever I meet you, I will give you a standing ovation.
To re-design the tables instead – by make 2 containers in the centre or by the side so that the leftover food can be scrapped into and the plates
– GT has given a very good point on that – “by changing the table design with 2 containers next to or even built in the table will make many people uncomfortable”. What will be the results, I can figure out two:
1. the food court use an amount of money to replace the tables.
2. their customer vanished gradually afterward
To reward someone who chose to return the tray – 50cents reimbursement
– I like it, because I am a Hongkee before, I love money. Sure I return the tray, if this is real.
Using only disposals container, forks and spoons
– Robert give a very good point on it – not comfortable, affect the taste of the food, not environmebt friend.
The above is from others comment, I have run stalls in some food courts, I like to say the followings:
Have you noticed how the cleaners collect the food and clean the tables. They put all the remaining food in one container; separate dishes to dishes, bowls to bowls, put all these in one tray, and then tray to tray. Go from table to table to doing this, until they cannot carry any more and take the trays, containers, remaining food to the collecting place for other to clean.
If we collect ourself, what we do should be putting everything in the tray and take the tray to the collecting place, then the cleaner have to do all the things mentioned above, except taking the tray to the collecting place. How many manpower will be saved? I estimate about 2 to 4 for different size food courts if they design a cart to collect food (like those in the plane).
After that, the owners of the food court will request the cleaning agents to lower their serving cost, and the agents will cut 5 to 6 manpower for that
But may be all these are worth so our government can change Singapore into a more respectful country they plan. So I support it.
Sorry, me again, As after I wrote the above comment, I still feeling boring, so I looked at the post again.
The suggestion of – “For someone who chose to return the tray, he gets 50cents reimbursement. For those who don’t, he pays 50 cents more” attract my attention again
First I thought if the food court (or the government) really want to take this suggestion, how to carry it out. I figure out the following method:
When you buy the food, you have to put 50 cents as deposit, when you return the tray, they give you $1 as reward.
Then I thought if this become true, it is a very good news for me. I will go to one food court nearby, if anyone leave without putting the tray back, I do it for them to get $1, I work 2 hours a day, 7 days a week. May be I can make a fortune with this new business.
Some experiences to share at 2 places I had been to, the canteen at Alexandra General Hospital @ Alexandra Road n Burger Shack @ 559 Bukit Timah Road. People who dine @ AH’s canteen returned their trays n cutlery to the respective collection bins. Over at Burger Shack, things were done gracefully. Diners clean/wipe up the tables, empty their leftover/unwanted stuff into the bin n place the cultery on the collection tray above the bin.
Whatever one does should not be driven by $$$ sense else what the point of doing it.
Social graces always abound wherever social consciousness’ are present.
In many countries, wherever the social morals is to always spare a thought for your fellow human, a clean table is always prevalent. As such, it becomes the norm to also leave a clean table behind after dining there.
In Singapore, if all else fails, do what has aways been done, FINE the offenders if caught. Sadly, money (not morals) seem to speak loudest in our fine society.
#11
You haven’t got the point! The point is the cleaner WANTS to have the leftover food.
Anyone who thinks that the debate is about patrons leaving their leftover food for the cleaners to eat had better read again!
Crumps from a rich man’s table go to feed the poor man’s children. The crumbs help the poor to survive.
My clean leftover food i give to a scavenger when i see him/her. I get a look of gratefulness but not a standing ovation. Wasted advice.
A reiteration: It is up to the cleaners whether he/she wants to take the leftovers on the table. He has a CHOICE. If he/she does not want them, he can dump the leftovers. He has a choice.
Terence #13
Next time if you are buying chicken wings, stop and look at the tables first and if you see two chicken wings left behind, take them and you will get a standing ovation!
Seriously, a lot of still eatable food is left behind and go to waste. Some restaurants charge the patrons the unconsumed food (leftovers) by the weight. This is effective in preventing food wastage. How about food vendors provide/sell doggie bags for patrons to take away their clean leftovers?
Hmmm..this post has generated much discussion. Seems like that are 2 main issues (A)should we leave something (is there a better word for leftover food?) for the cleaners?
(B)should we return the trays?
The first issue – if I want to give food, especially cooked food, to anybody, I will buy two portions – one for myself and one for him/her. Giving away food that you fail to consume (clean is but a matter of opinion) is, for lack of a better explanation, not hygienic.
The second issue is more interesting. Some had said moral, not money, should be the driving force behind what we aim to do. Applause. But lets get real. Even if you and I subscribe to and practise this noble philosophy, will the other 5 or 6 millions do the same? In Singapore, we must target where it helps or hurts most – the pocket.
The bus/mrt fare was increased with the promise of a more comfortable ride. More ERP gantries were elected with the promise of a more smoother drive. Town Council charges were raised with the promise of a cleaner environment. The charges have gone up and now they are looking for excuses for the unfulfilled promises.
Similarly, when the hawker centres and food courts raised the price, they used “high cost of hiring cleaners” as an excuse. Where does the money go to. You are right Robert (#18) – the main chunk of costs is due to the rent. Hence my remark (#10), “Why is it that consumers are always short-changed because of the inadequacy and inefficiency of service providers and the authorities-in-charge?”
Count the several tip-top coffee-shop/food-court owners we have. And of course the hawker centres are under NEA or HDB.
WHO ARE the big bosses? These tycoons, together with some food sellers, are collecting big money while the consumers and cleaners “fight” each other everyday. We are made to feel shameful and guilty (morally we are wrong) for not helping the cleaners. And the cleaners are paid a miserable fraction of what huge profit they gathered (financially the tycoons are correct).
If indeed we want to help the cleaners, make it mandatory to pay the person who come and collect the trays and clean the table. The noodles that cost $4.50 should now be $4, with the 50c paid directly to the cleaner. There are technical details to be ironed out, of course.
I have a friend who told me, half in jest, “Why so difficult? When you go and eat, bring along a big bag. Put all the used utensils into the bag and walk away. Good for the cleaners good for us”. Worth a thought.
#21 Andrew Yeung,
Andrew you made me laugh! I like your vivid imagination. Looks like there’s an enterprise readymade for us senior citizens. Being paid to clear diners’ dishes. If there are any diners who want us to clean their table first, then we upped our service charge ya? Hehehehe….
#26 Daniel Chan,
You are so right! It’s the people at the top sitting in their leather high chairs in an air-conditioned office that makes the most money out of us consumers. Everything, literally everything we eat or use are marked up so ridiculously high and it’s increasing all the time. They blame it on high operational costs but most of us have seen with our own eyes how life was in the 60’s & 70’s. Cleaners were much younger and hence more agile. Sad to say, our younger generation do not and will not want a job as a cleaner as the job is now considered ‘low class’. Sooo if diners want to clear their trays, it should be done as a matter of having good eating habits. After all, most of us clear our own dishes once we finish our meals at home.
Hi Daniel – #26 “liked”
Cheers
Thank you, all above, who suggest that if we want to give food to cleaners (or anyone else) because your food portion is too large, that we should do it with thoughtfulness, namely, ask the person if he/she would want the food. Ask nicely please :)I love @14 and 15 especially.
And keep the discussion going about clearing trays. It is a matter of logistics, cost and will, but we’ll get there :)
Hi Terence…waiting for your conclusion with regards to your puzzlement in the header of this post. Since there is none, allow me to conclude – and clarify your observation.
It is an insult to Singaporeans in general, and the cleaners in particular, to suggest that they put left over food together to take away for their own consumption. Don’t know about other countries but I firmly believe this is not happening in Singapore. Let me know if there is and I will refer him/her/them to our Ministry of Community Development and also tell our mainstream newspapers to do a story.
Of course, if the cleaner and the customer know each other well and trust each other, there is no reason to stop them from sharing food in whatever way they like.
So, your statement of “I support returning of food trays, but this observation gives me second thoughts” is totally unfounded. This is not a good reason NOT to return the trays.
Having expressed my views on the tycoons and authorities, I guess we still have to be down to earth. Help the cleaners in whatever ways we could. Eating neatly is one way. If the place facilitates ease of of tray return, lets do it.
In the final analysis, pardon my language but I would like to insert a crude American term in my sentence. We are being screwed and yet we are made to feel guilty for not helping them get the next victim fast enough.
Sigh….Socialism Singapore Style.
Regards to all.
Hi DanielC #30, and fellow members,
Thank you for rounding up the feedback on the return of trays to a common collection point. From the discussion, we see most members are considerate with cleaners and would not like a situation where cleaners have to pick up unfinished food. I can only say that there is always a lot of nice food left behind, which I would say, usually goes to waste. And that there are Singaporeans who would like to have this unfinished food, but are shy or afraid of taking them, for fear of being looked at. Perhaps, food courts can provide spare plates, where diners can leave edible balance food at a collection area.
But, back to returning of trays, we haven’t covered much on this issue. The idea has good intentions, but obviously we don’t want to bring the trays to the collection point, only to see ourselves balancing one tray on other trays or to accidentally drop every thing on the floor, and everybody else expecting someone to clean up the mess.
An interesting discussion on this forum. I encourage members to be up on current affairs, create a discussion point and conclude the discussion. Have fun.
Terence Seah