For many of us, we will be at least 65 years old in 20 years time. Last week, the Singapore government released the Population White Paper with the headline "6.9 million population in 2030".For many of us, we will be at least 65 years old in 20 years time.
Of course, some of us might not need to be too worried, as we may not be around. This projection has generated a lot of interest in Singapore, and among Singaporeans. Name it and we can read them in the papers concerns of high cost housing, medical care, less space and job competition. There are numerous concerns.
I thought we can have a hearty chat on this topic, which is close to the hearts of many of us. As the elderly population increases, does Singapore need to raise the projected population to 6.9 m people in 20 years time? The paper projects growth rates of 2 – 3% with this population increase. This number seem rather modest, as any global financial crisis can easily wipe this number off.
What can we do, being a part of Singapore elderly? Take a broad view on the topic. What would you do? Maybe take a less serious view or even a fun view; your thoughts and ideas may be worth considering. Some ideas and suggestions may be useful to the economists and the government.
Keep the politics element out of this Post please.
Terence Seah
In 20 years time, our city will have a complete network of covered walkways and all elderly can join in the baby elephant walk on rainy days.
Have Fun! :)
Stay Healthy! Be Happy!
I will just “nua” at home cos I will be 75 and can’t pound the dance floor or karaoke pubs.
I may not be around by then :)
Cheers
Carly
Oops! I missed the point.
Well the government can build taller buildings, clear the green Singapore and build more high rise flats.
Old folks will be sent to our neighbour’s retirement village to clear the space for young foreign talents.
Hire more security personnel as everywhere will be like sardines in a can and stampede may be a regular occurence.
Its Friday and very eng so my thoughts run free!
Cheers
Carly
Hi Caroline,
We can all go stay in Desaru. There is space, there is the sea and maybe cheaper makan. But, no shopping.
I have been observing some of our members, taking up the “Malaysia, my 2nd home” as an option.
If you are 75, so will I be.
Terence Seah
Looking at the various locations available, i think i’ll move to the NEW woodlands new town – nearer to the causeway (ie, Malaysia) so that i can go there for my monies’ worth of cheaper shopping and to their beaches because ours will be packed.
Maybe i should take on a retirement job as a taxi driver, because i can’t afford to get another one when the current one is 10 years old?
Actually, Choa Chu Kang was such a peaceful place when i moved there about 5 years ago. Now, i hardly have space when i go for my morning walk – almost got run-down by the rush of people in every direction… sigh..
Hi Inez,
I like the idea of taking up a taxi driver’s job. I have always wanted to, but only to ferry young girls. Then, I read about the attacks on taxi drivers during the night shift. Gave up.
Now, again I think your idea will be good. But I worry it will be like Bangkok, where taxis get stuck in a traffic jam, when our population hits 7m. Too old then.
Terence Seah
Terence,
We probably can do that. Desaru is nice. Nice beaches and less expensive living. And when I am 75, dont need to shop for new clothes and shoes too often so no need shopping. Just supermart shopping will do for me :)
Carly
some thoughts…
1. with a 6.9 million population, there will be a domestic market and labour supply. This will attract small businesses and NGOs and jobs will be created.
2. Infrastructures must keep pace with the increased population and since govt is aware of this need, there won’t be major infrastructure problems in 2030.
3.Since we are land scare, the offshore little islands could be developed and populated:
e.g.i)half of Ubin and Semakau could become HDB enclaves. With facilities and jobs there, transmigration won’t be a problem.
ii)other islands could be cultivated with high technology. Highrise rooftop farms in S’pore could become ubiquitous by 2030. We must try to produce at least 50% of our food.
4. Schools should gear education to produce more inventors/innovators and nurture an entrepreneurial spirit. Education must no more perpetrate an employee mentality.
What can we do? What can i do? Hmm… i will try to create an original snack/cookie and if it becomes a hit, will start a cottage industry……. lol! :)
Terence, I have received or read articles with very vivid photo-shopped photos of what Singapore will be like in Year 2030. The photos/images are all hilarious albeit very worrying if it becomes true.
In Year 2030, if I still survive my weak heart, I will be 79 yrs old! Urgh! I pray I won’t be dying cell by cell because of dementia or Parkinsons’ Disease then. I always want to die pretty leh…:p and able to say ‘Goodbye’ to family members and good friends.
I am worried for my grandchildren as they’ll be in their early 20’s in Year 2030. They have to really fight harder to get jobs or migrate if their parents can afford it.
The thought of 8.9 million people all jumping at the same time causing Singapore to sink is petrifying!
The newspapers did a graphic comparison of Singapore with some major cities in the world and it looked like 6.9 million people in Singapore is not as bad as those cities who have more people.
What is disturbing is that THOSE cities are on mainlands whereas Singapore is just an island!
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear….:(
Ros
Sorry, typo error in paragraph 4 – it should be 6.9 million
I am supposed to keep politics out of this discussion. So, all I have to say is:
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Thank you.
Ron Koh
Hi Ron,
Can email me your comments? Since I cannot read them here.
For myself, I think I will look for a place to emigrate and die there.
I think the govt should have a referndum before it reaches 6.9mill. As it is from the little that we knew about in the last few years, the resident popn has balloned to 5+mill.
Hou Chong, can stay in ONE of your many houses or not? Please?
Hi RonK #11 and CharlesC #12,
My reply is simplier……
[@&^#%^*&@*6%$#@!!%#]
[@#%^*&@*6%#$#%$#@!!%#]
[@#%^*&@*6%$#@*^$#@@!!%#]……
We are now at a crossroad in Singapore where the policy of instituting changes will impact the demographic aspects with far-reaching consequences.
Does a tiny island need such a rapid increase in population?
Yes, in the name of prosperity we want economic growth but at what tradeoff.
I personally treasure certain undeveloped parts where I can spend a tranquil day in touch with nature. Do we want another concrete jungle at Pulau Ubin. I do not aspire to live in a multi-million dollar landed property, drive a BMW, eat at expensive restaurants, own many credit cards. These are all manifestations of materialism. What does one really treasure most in life?
Now I spend my time meeting up with friends, picking a new
hobby in dancing, singing karaoke at CC. Occasionally I spend the day at islands, reservoirs, parks and nature reserves and do some travels. Most of the time I use public transport. These are within the reach of most people.
The above views are my personal reflections and should not be construed as engaging in a political discourse.
@12 Charles, I think you do not have to take such a drastic measure to uproot yourself and go to a unfamiiar land. This is still our turf and must be treasured and protected.
NO WORRY ABOUT 2030
Sometime in 2016 EVERY hitherto unilateral plan will be revisited, revised and possibly replaced.
My comment #14
In the last second paragraph, the correct spelling of the word is “misconstrued”. In the last paragraph, the spelling is unfamiliar.
Our current population is 5.3M, out of which 3.3M are Singaporeans. We know that these 3.3M Singaporeans do not know how to reproduce themselves. Even if we all SHC members help out by having sex everyday now, it will still be 3.3M Singaporean in 2030. So if the total population reaches 6.9M then, there will be 3.3M Singaporeans versus 3.6M foreigners. My friends, I hope I can still find you in the crowd.
But we need to have these foreigners in order to be prosper. Your HDB flat will be worth over a $Million by then. So you will be a prosperous millionaire. The only problem is that you will still be staying in the same flat, only it needs renovation by than and the renovation contractor wants to charge you a bomb because he is also a $Millionaire like you. If you are lucky, you may upgrade to a condo. Make sure it is not too high up the sky and you have enough room to stretch your old legs.
Do I have a solution? No, because it is not my problem and if I discuss it here for fun, it will be political.
Charles, Very easy to be a millionaire in S’pore. I often thought to myself “20 yrs ago, I shd have bght that swee-swee property”. That my friend turned me into a Hindsight Millionaire immediately.
Tian Soo, if “we all SHC members help out by having sex everyday now, it will still be 3.3M Singaporean in 2030”. Maybe 3.3m – xx, there will be some who perished from IT.
So 20 yrs on , there will be even more foreigners everywhere in the public place ..oh no.
Personally, I found it dreadful, trying to comm. with those foreign hawkers who are loud and rude. Perhaps, we don’t understand each other to begin with. Immigrants must learn our language, practices and culture to assimilate well into this country – an important principle for immigration anywhere. No politics here, so no further comment. Tmw, I shall go back to the make shift shed and shout on top of my voice “Ah Soh, Wah Ai Teh Nee hor (colloquial for – Aunty, May I have a cup of Tea with Milk Please)”.
HC
HC LEE #18
Yesterday I witnessed an incident which demonstrates that
the foreigners cannot have and share the same ethos as Singaporeans.
At a wet market, a woman was waiting to buy fish. She showed her impatience by insisting that she wanted $3 worth of fish and grumbled that she had no time to wait when there were a few other waiting customers. Ater much hackles, the hawker relented. The last act of selfishness
surfaced when she told the fishmonger to make fillets out
of that small piece of fish. I concluded that she was a
foreigner from her accent.
I can well imagine what would happen when the population hits 6.9 millions. Similar incidents will become much more
commonplace as the people jostle for space, goods and services.
I must tell this story before it goes out of date.
I was in a hurry, and waiting for a taxi, along the roadside. After waiting for twenty minutes, I noticed a young pretty girl coming towards me. She was playing with her IPhone, and queued up some 3 metres behind me.
I continued waiting. Ten minutes later, a taxi came up right infront of me. Before I could step down the kerb, the young girl quickly went infront of me, opened the taxi door, and got into the car. She did not say sorry. She knew I was right infront of her, in an informal queue.
From her dressing, I knew she was from China.
I think I will go crazy with these foreigners in Singapore. Pretty or otherwise, I would not care.
Terence Seah
It is apparent that many Singaporeans (locals) are worked up by the influx of foreigners for obvious reasons – competition for jobs, for space, etc. But it wasn’t too long ago that my parents came here from China to find a living. They too were foreigners then.
Lots of immigrants from China back then, and I wondered if the “locals” who were already living here had the same feeling that the foreigners were competing with them for resources. Back then, people were either living in over-crowded 2-storey shop houses in Chinatown or in kampongs where there were no running water and proper sanitation. There was no electricity, no cars and no MRT’s. Population was in the hundreds or thousands – definitely not in millions.
Half a century on and we now have population in the millions and we enjoy a lifestyle that we are proud of and want to preserve. And that is why we want to protect our turfs from the influx of more foreigners.
Perhaps, it would not be too bad when 2030 comes even if we have 7 million people by then. With new technology and the clever people in our midst, they may have a way of making things work. Just like we never could have visualised multi-storey buildings and MRTs when we were young, there could be new innovations that we don’t know of yet
My point is, let us enjoy ourselves and do not worry for our children and grandchildren. Firstly, worry does not help to make things better. Who knows, things might even be better for them come 2030. If one of us live to that day, perhaps we could be heard telling our grand-children, “I could never have imagined that we now have 7 million people and Singapore is still so beautiful and efficient.”
I have been out of the job cycle for some time and can only contribute my observations.
Stomp and other internet sources have shown clear examples of FTs treating our public spaces, parks, bus, and MRT as their own homes. The use parks to dry their laundry and encroach into public spaces. Otherwise they sit and occupy public transport seats, which they would not do at home even, legs stretched out on seats, sleeping prone, leaving shoemarks on seat edges, eating, drinking and making a mess, etc
Such examples typify their value system. They have no moral compass, after being in the Communist system for so long. There is no right or wrong, just what you can get away with, or what you can threten others with. What do you expect when they were taught that ‘power starts from the barrel of a gun’.
Visitors to their country will tell you that if they don’t rush, they will get nothing, so everyone looks after themselves as No 1. To bad if you are handicapped, small size, or female.
Some of the stories I heard about social dynamics in the workplace, is that they first come into the workplace and complain to the boss or supervisor, verbal as well as written, make everyone unhappy, cause some resignations, and replace these resignations with more of their kind/culture, on the grounds that they are cheaper, and soon they have a very strong group, which cooperates among themselves, very cliquish, and take over the department. Then even the immediate superior is threatened.
You might even make an argument that the current development stage of their countries, are a reflection of their culture, work dynamics, and value system. Think corruption, cliques, ethics of ‘selfish interests are paramount’, argumentative, class division.
China’s attitude towards other countries, in the last century, before her advancement to be the second largest economy in the world, in this century, will be vastly different from before. An ascendant China will not be the same as the old China. These will be the same for their citizens. Just look at the territorial claims currently happening.
So Barbara, while you may be right, that in the not too distant future, our children may benefit from this import of FTs, did you also consider what if you are wrong?
Does anyone think our strategy is right or wrong so far?
Good Luck.
I have been out of the job cycle for some time and can only contribute my observations.
Stomp and other internet sources have shown clear examples of FTs treating our public spaces, parks, bus, and MRT as their own homes. The use parks to dry their laundry and encroach into public spaces. Otherwise they sit and occupy public transport seats, which they would not do at home even, legs stretched out on seats, sleeping prone, leaving shoemarks on seat edges, eating, drinking and making a mess, etc
Such examples typify their value system. They have no moral compass, after being in the Communist system for so long. There is no right or wrong, just what you can get away with, or what you can threten others with. What do you expect when they were taught that ‘power starts from the barrel of a gun’.
Visitors to their country will tell you that if they don’t rush, they will get nothing, so everyone looks after themselves as No 1. To bad if you are handicapped, small size, or female.
Some of the stories I heard about social dynamics in the workplace, is that they first come into the workplace and complain to the boss or supervisor, verbal as well as written, make everyone unhappy, cause some resignations, and replace these resignations with more of their kind/culture, on the grounds that they are cheaper, and soon they have a very strong group, which cooperates among themselves, very cliquish, and take over the department. Then even the immediate superior is threatened.
You might even make an argument that the current development stage of their countries, are a reflection of their culture, work dynamics, and value system. Think corruption, cliques, ethics of ‘selfish interests are paramount’, argumentative, class division.
China’s attitude towards other countries, in the last century, before her advancement to be the second largest economy in the world, in this century, will be vastly different from before. An ascendant China will not be the same as the old China. These will be the same for their citizens. Just look at the territorial claims currently happening.
So Barbara, while you may be right, that in the not too distant future, our children may benefit from this import of FTs, did you also consider what if you are wrong?
Does anyone think our strategy is right or wrong so far?
Good Luck.
I think many of us have had our share of encounters with so-called FTs, both pleasant and unpleasant. Most of the foreigners I have interacted with, to be fair, are pleasant and social minded. From the Bangladeshi and Indian nationals that work in our refuse disposal compound, to the hawker assistants, and to the doctors, physiotherapists and nurses in our medical facilities. Some of them possess levels of professionalism and service standards that I really wish more Singaporeans will emulate.
Having said, that, I also have had my share of unpleasant experiences. I put these to the minority whose presence are really giving the mojority of FTs a bad name.
One incident that still rankles me happen about two and half years ago. I was just relearning to get back on my feet then, having had a stroke that confined me to a wheelchair for several months. One of my daily routines was to go for evening walks around the neighbourhood park, and to use the exercise equipment in the park. I was then heavily reliant on a walking stick.
One of the exercise equipment I use regularly is the hand cycle, for strengthening the shoulder arm arm muscles. I took a seat in front of the hand cycle, placed the walking stick beside me, and proceeded to exercise.
Not long after that, I heard a woman laughing quite hysterically. I turned around, and noticed that my walking stick was gone. It transpired that a 3 to 4 year old Indian boy had taken it, and threw it about ten feet away, down an incline. An Indian woman, who could be the child’s grandmother, just stood there, laughing away, chattering away in an Indian dialect/language, and did nothing to admonish the child or recover the walking stick. I was then not in a physical condition to recover the walking stick on my own, or walk home without it to aid me.
Fortunately, some joggers witnessed the whole incident. These joggers – which included some ethnic Indians, scolded the woman and recovered the walking stick for me.
The child may not have realised the effects of his prank, but I would expect an adult of the woman’s age to have some common sense, social awareness and basic courtesy.
On another occasiion, I was hit from behind by a PRC national riding a bicycle on the jogging track. The words: ‘NO CYCLING’ are painted at regular intervals on the jogging track. Instead of offering an apology, the PRC national asked me belligerently in heavily accented Mandarin: “You know how to walk or not?”
Again, I had myregular jogging knights to the rescue.
After reading all the comments and opinion after my jokes, the following thoughts came to me.
The 6.9m is not cast in stone. We was given 3 choices. Whether we want:
1. pro-growth and pro-business
2. lower growth but enjoys greater welfare and more subsidies, or
3. to rely on community self-help with less “interference”
If this is correct then we are given a responsibilty to decide what we want. We may not survive by then but have our children and grandchildren to think off.
Stay Healthy! Be Happy! :)
Hahaha! I try to post from my iPhone…
Terence: Very common… we were waiting for passenger to alight from taxi before getting in… Alamak! Foreign talent just barged in front of us and plonked herself into the front seat! We were momentarily stunned and flabbergasted! What to do??? Bring in more of them… Then Terence can have more young pretty passengers for his taxi!
Johnny @23:
The problem is, as the situation now stands, we not a realistic position to make any of the three choices you list. These choices are now very much out of our hands.
At the risk of running foul of our club ‘no politics’ policy, we are left with three choices, if we do not agree with the pro-immigration policy:
1. Try convincing this government to change the policy. If this is not possible, we should
2. Change the government, or
3. Change our country of domicile, or go to the next world.
Ron Koh
Hi Charles,
(#22 above).
To answer your question, my answer frankly is “no”, I haven’t really think very deeply on this issue, and I don’t think I am even capable of doing it. I have very little brain cells left at my age, so I don’t think I can handle such complex issues. I prefer to concentrate on things that can make me happy in my life time. My earlier remark is just an outcome of my optimistic outlook.
To neutralise a bit this hot topic, I relate a recent true experience regarding foreigners.
I was returning home Saturday evening, from Dolby Ghaut to Bishan. Train was very very crowded as usual. 2 young girls (pretty face teenagers), were standing just in front of me. They were talking in a foreign language that I did not understand (Thai? Myanmar? Vietnam?) As they were too short to reach the handrail above and there was no vertical pole, they had to balance themselves as the train thundered on the track.
Somewhere after Orchard, one girl fell on me and quickly she said, “sorry”. I replied instinctively, “Okay. No problem”. Not sure whether she took it literally, but for the rest of the journey, her head and back were resting on my chest, with her friend holding her hand and they continued talking. I did not know how to react, or perhaps I did not bother to react. We got out at Bishan together, they said “thank you”, waved and disappeared into the crowd. The point is – no local girls will “fall” for this – their mothers should have warned them even at toddler’s age. I know what some people are thinking but never mind. Different culture different vultures perhaps.
Having said this, I must admit we experience more cobbling than coddling in the trains every day. For information, I avoid taking the North East line (purple line) as far as possible. The circle line is my most preferred line.
Hi Terence #20
The episode has turned from a serious topic on the nation’s policy on population to a lighthearted encounter which depicts human nature.
Terence did not show any indignation towards the pretty girl when she usurped his right to board the long-awaited taxi. His close attention of the girl triggered off the ensuing event. He has described the stranger very vividly. The girl read his body language superbly and this has emboldened her to make such a rash but calculated gesture.
On the part played by Terence it is not known whether it is an act of chivalry where “Ladies first” is still in vogue.
Hi Robert #30,
To me, the issue on population is a serious national issue, and I do not take this likely. However, I felt we might be able to address this issue, through a light hearted discussion among us.
There was no person around me, after she got into the taxi. She was already almost inside the taxi, before my first foot got down from the kerb. Tell you honestly, I was caught by surprise, didn’t know what to say, but you bet, I was furious.
If she had asked, “May I?”, maybe I would have obliged.
Terence Seah
Hi Terence #31,
So I don’t understand why you did not stand up for your right? Or at least educate her about common courtesy here.
How are we to stop such boorish and selfish behaviour if we accept it as the norm?
If it was a male, would you have thrown him out of the taxi? Ask him to come out and slam the door on his foot? Then say “Ting pu dong’ to his yelling. Then slam the door again and say he can have the taxi since he is in a hurry?
Perhaps Gandhi’s non-violent objection is best. Your self-control is admirable.
What is the practice in other countries?
Hi CharlesC, Once a burly PRC woman walked straight up to the petrol station counter and began to engage the counter girl even as I was making a payment. I was made to feel invisible and so, had to raise my voice and shout at the counter girl to warn her to focus on my payment first. Fortunately she did that and the PRC woman didn’t pose a challenge and backed off. In my view, unless an appointment has been made or it is the case of an emergency, the rule of thumb for serving the general public should be “Always serve the one who is in front of the Queue”. In the taxi case, the taxi driver ought to be warned on the spot.
Hi RobertO, you are right. Regrettably, many don’t change or adapt as much as what we would like them to.
Hi DanielC, I had a similar experience 30+ years ago. I was taking a bus ride home from town at 5.45 pm when a pretty young lady decided to lean on me for security. She was friendly and from her speech, was clearly a local. Besides feeling good, I remembered that my right arm ached like crazy at the end of that 40 mins bus journey.
HC
Hi Hou Chong,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
If you are poor, they will look down on you. And if you are rich, they will be jealous of you. You can’t win with PRCs.
And this is only the beginning. You can see how demanding they are when they travel as guests to another country.
If the bus breaks down, they wll insist on an on-the-spot refund, for fares and damages. Same for when they are on a plane which is delayed. Sometimes I think the HKers know them better for the plague they are.
And our beloved govt bends over to welcome them as FTs.
But I have to add this caveat, ie that this does not apply to all PRCs/FTs wholesale. Some come with better morals, scruples and talent than even ourselves. And they are an asset any company they work for or any community they live in. Anyone would welcome a law-abiding, civic conscious person as a neighbour or colleaque.
The problem is the public and their neighbours that know this, don’t make the decision to grant them the PRs. But those granting the PRs and those pushing for their approvals do not share this same criteria. Instead they are only interested in showing the numbers to their bosses and boosting their profits for those bosses who are applying. So the net result can only be a deterioration in the quality of those FTs, especially when they are fast-tracked. This has led to the current state with all its wherewithal complaints.
Hi Charles,
May I suggest that we stay away from Policies matters and National issues because they fringe on being Political. Sharing about our personal experiences good or bad, is okay. The big picture will come together when statistics are drawn from the masses. Hope you don’t mind.
HC
Looks like Singaporeans are concerned about PRs/immigrants and future generations produced by FTs – the Mainland Chinese in particular.
I must say I have had my share of witnessing unbelievable behavior over here which make my head hurts but at the same time have come across civil, polite tourists and immigrants.
So when someone tells me how ‘bad’ the situation is getting back in Sg because of them, my reply is I am used to it and am immune to the obnoxious behavior. That does not mean I am not irked or mad at them when they act up.
I think here in HK, there are ‘programs/activities’ either run by the authority or the community for new immigrants to settle in quickly and get to know their neighbors etc. Not certain about this; just a vague memory.
Everybody is affected by the influx of foreigners whether they be Chinese, Indian or Caucasian. And the numbers are increasing: putting a strain on our limited resources, housing, transport, etc.
But the government is now saying that we should accept and accomodate up to 6.9 million population on this tiny Red Dot or else face an ageing crisis with a declining economy, and Singapore may go down the drain.
This is not politics… I think every Singaporean should have a say in deciding where our country will be in the future. Just like the Singapore Conversation, we should debate this extensively and even have a referendum before embarking on this drastic plan which will affect the future generations.
I just read an interesting article written back in 2010 about the downside and limits to population growth policies. The Ponzi Demography by Joseph Chamie bears an uncanny resemblance to what is now being proposed… I just hope it doesn’t come to pass.
Anyway, as a senior with not many more years of an active lifestyle, I am not looking forward to more people on the streets, on the trains and buses, in our polyclinics and hospitals, in our shops and food courts, in our immediate environment.
And, I am concerned about the rising costs: not only for housing, but for food, transport, education, medical… just about everything.
Will Singapore be only a place for the rich, and those who can work and make money?? And those who can’t should be side-lined??
The final answers to the debate may decide whether I should remain in Singapore or ship out to avoid these developments.
Most citizens of other countries, developed or not, will always see foreign immigrants as a threat to their jobs and livelihood. I think it is a natural reaction to ‘invaders’ of one’s turf.
Singaporeans by and large are vocal in print. Not so in many other countries whereby the citizens will not hesitate to let their government know they are against whatever policy is being introduced. Yeah, protest marches are banned in Singapore and there still are citizens who fear the wrath of the powers-to-be. No one wants to be hauled by ISD and the Police to be locked up for goodness knows how long.
I already mentioned in my earlier post that although I personally might not live to see 6.9 million people trampling on my home ground, I do worry for the next generation and the future generations….how will they cope?
Dear All,
New things are happening at 7:30pm at the void-deck of Blk 135 Rivervale Street tonight (04Feb2013).
Be there if you are staying around this area…..
Because the History of Singapore just started with or opened a NEW page…..
While we lambaste the Government for this white paper thing, we should be sane enough not to reduce it to foreigner-bashing. Most foreigners who reached our shore have done it legally. They have their own reason being here, just as we have ours if we choose to uproot ourselves.
In my secondary school days, I read for Literature a satire by George Orwell, “Animal Farm”. Among the many memorable phrases I found this intriguing, “4 legs good, 2 legs bad”. Fast forward to 2013 and I thought I heard, “Locals good, foreigners bad”. Of course nobody in his right mind will say this – at least not openly – but if statements are not carefully worded, they are slanted to this effect.
Let’s see all people as human beings. Put aside personal unpleasant experiences and forget the cultural “defects”, and we could be more forgiving. Many foreigners here are victims of circumstances just like us, probably ten times worse. They are here to make a living so as to bring up a family – here or at home. Anything else is but a heredity baggage that nobody can shake off easily.
Every (elected) Government has the duty and responsibility to protect its citizens, as well as those who are standing on its soil. Singapore being a member of the United Nation is no exception. 6.9 MILLION is a CRUEL JOKE. I can go on writing, but I may be infringing into forbidden territory in this forum. So I shall propagate my “rhetoric” somewhere else. Live and let live.
1) Now with our current population already so overly crowded esp. weekends at shopping centres, food courts and cinemas.
Just take a good look at Vivo City .The loud noise generated and the huge crowd of shoppers is good enough to spoil one’s mood. Now I cannot even enjoy my favourite cup of Starbucks caramel frappucino in peace. :( Apa macham ?
2) Most of the time , if I were to take the train to Pasir Ris I had to stand on the MRT trains while the foreigners are sitting happily and enjoying themselves. The only chance I am able to get my seat is at either Outram Park or Raffles Place.
With 6.9 million , I really wonder ? Anyway, in 2030, it is no longer my problem as I will NOT be around but I sympathize with the younger generation who have to compete for space, home and jobs with the foreigners.
On this forum, most of us have clearly identified limited space, high living costs, loss of job opportunities and long medical queues as factors for Singapore not to keep increasing its population.
I have been wanting to understand better what comprises the “Singapore Core”. It’s only in today’s ST that I now see the population paper refers the “Singapore Core” to those born in Singapore and new Singaporeans. This being the case, true borne Singaporeans will form less than 50% of the total population in 2030 or anytime sooner. I understand better, and will now track the “Singapore Core” figure, to avoid being distracted by new Singaporeans.
It is interesting to read how Korea handled the familiar “total fertility rate”. The shift was not just getting the fertility up, but to get the marrying rate up. So many reasons we can identify why our children are not marrying. I am sure some of us are trying to get our children to get married.
Please keep the discussions going; but avoid the politics part of it, especially the parties and elections. It is difficult to tell the difference.
Terence Seah
I think without referring to any ‘politics’ or govt part of this issue, our discussion will mainly be hitting at the effects of the White Paper, not the cause. As we are this core group of Singaporeans, we should have a say in this, as our parents and us are the pioneer batch to build up this country to where we are today.
No need to hit at ruling party, but a sensible discussion whether current policies are good or right for us and our off-springs.
After all, this is what the Singapore Conversation is all about – a discussion of government policies, how they affect everyday life of ordinary people and what can be done to improve them.
I don’t think the ruling party so far have taken any offence on the opinions raised, but benefited a lot in reading the minds of Singaporeans.
Today’s ST’s Forum has an interesting article written by a lady under the heading : What’s exactly is a ‘good quality living environment’?
A phrase she mentioned : “older flat was taken over by HDB for redevelopment” triggers a concern from me.
By 2030 and with the projected increase in population, will the present flat(s) that most of us are living now be considered as old and be “reclaimed” by the authority so that smaller flats could be built on the same plot of land to accommodate this increase ?
Will we be able to afford to purchase this smaller flat or even to top up the balance (based on the local authority’s evaluation on the value of our exisiting “old” flat) ? If not, where will we (the retirees) go ? Will the local authority be ready with sufficient old folks’ homes (by then) to accommodate this group of “forced evacutees” (who not only has lost their precious home; their savings may have reached to a super low level by 2030 too)?
Will we end up as homeless people on the street especialy those who have no children or close relatives living in SIN (still) ? Whereforth is the “good quality living environment” in 2030 ?
//(>_<)\\
Out of curiosity on #37 Kenneth’s comment, I dread that this is actually happening.
Do read http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=8321
Scary, really….
Kenneth Tan #37
Yes you have raised a pertinent point about Singapore’s moving towards in the direction of catering for the rich.
In a Worldwide Cost of Living 2013 survey, Singapore has been ranked by the Economist’s Intelligent Unit as the sixth most expensive city in the world. It is 35 per cent more costly to live in than New York! Its position is also ranked above cities such as Zurich, Paris and Geneva.
The survey is based on 160 products and services. The major
contributors in Singapore are the costs of housing, transport, food, the appreciation of Singdollar against the major currencies, as well as a tight labour market.
Many rich foreigners have invested heavily in high class bungalows in district 10 and Sentosa Cove. Why would the Hollywood actor Jackie Chan and the Lippo billionaire invested heavily in Singapore property market? The conributing factors are asset inflation, little control on ownership and there is no capital gain tax on earnings on property.
So Singapore is not going to become cheaper anytime soon.
Hi..while on the subject of migrants, watch this for a laugh (and ponder)………
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=wq_lhlIn1e0
No further comments
Usually I’d stay out of controversial subjects, mainly because I often see both sides of the coin – the good and the bad. But today, I felt like speaking up –
In the past-
Whenever Singaporeans blame foreigners for taking away jobs from Singaporeans – I’d say, “But these foreigners are taking jobs that Singaporeans shunned – domestic helpers, constructions workers, road sweepers/garbage collectors…
Recently –
A conversation with a 32 year old engineer, who works in a MNC, revealed that 3 in 4 employees in his department were foreigners. Whenever they have too many projects to handle, they’d subcontract some work to (you’ve guessed it) more foreigners to handle. His CEO and top level management are all foreigners. His mid level manager is local.
I had a problem with my mobile phone. At the mobile phone service center- the receptionist issued a queue number to me, to speak with the “technician at the counter”. During my 10-15 minutes wait, I saw that there were eighteen counters. All manned by employees speaking in foreign accent.
As I move about doing my day-to-day routine, I find that –
The retail shops at HDB enclaves, as well as mega shopping malls, zichar stalls, kopitiams, high/low end restaurants – are all served by employees speaking in foreign accented Chinese (or English).
There was an error on my credit card statement – I called the credit card hotline. The employee spoke in a foreign accent. I was not happy with the way she handled my complain and asked to speak with her manager. The manager also spoke in foreign accented English. I discovered that this call-center is based in the Philippines! I am aware that many services are “outsourced to cheaper countries”, but – services centers such as these, too?
Where are my fellow Singaporeans? What are they working as? I don’t know.
Just me – Jacqueline HAN – thinking out loud.
Hi JacHan #49,
Reading your post and the reply that comes to my mind is:
Singaporeans (those borned and bred here or the 1st or perhaps 2nd generation immigrants) are fast fading away….
But then when reading you said: “But these foreigners are taking jobs that Singaporeans shunned – domestic helpers, constructions workers, road sweepers/garbage collectors…”
WELL! Last night, we went for Dinner at HG Point Kopitiam…found many “aunties and uncles” standing “in-position” and look ever ready to “clean tables”. And mind you, I am surprised that they are made to “stand or position” themselves ONE-person-around-every-TEN-tables-or-so….and I am quite sure that they are Singaporeans too from the way they speaks….
We used to be a placed that I am very proud of BUT now, I think this place has turned into a place of stone and cold too! So sad right!!??
Hi Jaqueline #48
You should watch the Youtube video in #47.
It is no laughing matter. The planet Earth is invaded not by aliens from outer space in the galaxy. They do not look like weird creatures carrying laser guns as depicted in “Star Wars”. They are classified as the species called Homo Sapiens.
In your last paragraph, you have asked a serious question indeed. Ater I left my last place of work for some years, I met two fellow ex-colleagues. One was a qualified draughtsman and now he works as a taxi driver. The other was a very experienced welder and now he works as a petrol pump attendant. Very sad. What a waste of human resources.
As for me, I am more lucky. Although I am still physically
and mentally sound, I can afford to leave the work force.
After reading the reconmended article #37 ; #46 and thinking about it, i decided to share briefly an opinion as follows:
Our fertility rates is below 1.5 and is very unlikely will get back to replacement level any time soon. Doing it just to stabilise the size of the population or labour force, will create too many that it becomes politically and economically very difficult. Now we already facing difficulty in assimilating and intergrating.
Setting policy for organic growth may have some modest impact. More important is the willingness of our younger generation wanting to have children. The French, with a FR at 1.9 may be a useful example to consider. They manage to create a culture where women and men believe that they can have a family and children and still work – so they have preshool and after school assistance and so on.
Stay Healthy! Be Happy! :)
Hey RobertO #51 – Long time no see. I trust you are well.
Thanks for alerting me to view utube video at #48 posted by Daniel Chan. I had a good laugh. The song was well-sung, and chirpy, and contained the truth… After the laugh – my sombre mood returned….
Ivan Lim #50 – Ho bo? Also long time no see!
So – from RobertO and Ivan Lim – I gather that my fellow Singaporeans, highly qualified and very experienced, are working as taxi-drivers, pump attendants, and food court table-cleaners…. yes – how sad for us…. come to think of it – I recall seeing some aged aunties working at fast food joints, dishing out fries and burgers….
They are going ahead with the White Paper anyway….:(
Ros
Everyday we are deluged with news and comments about the 6.9m population projected for 2030.
Now i hear about the Ponzi Demography population growth theory. Another perspective perhaps.
‘According to Ponzi demography, population growth means more people leading to increased demands for goods and services, more material consumption, more borrowing, more on credit and of course more profits. Everything seems fantastic for a while — but like all Ponzi schemes, Ponzi demography is unsustainable.
When the bubble eventually bursts and the economy sours, the scheme spirals downward with higher unemployment, depressed wages, falling incomes, more people sinking into debt, more homeless families — and more men, women and children on public assistance.’
I have no comments nor views as yet but will leave it those in the know to debate and expound.
Whistleblower
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snAV9gHHkkw
Stay Healthy! Be Happy! :)
#55 Charles Wee
Is Population Growth a Ponzi scheme?.
This subject was dwelt in great length by Joseph Chamie.
The basic pitch of those promoting population growth is
straightforward in its appeal: “More is better.”
While it comes in many guises, Ponzi demography is a
pyramid scheme that attempts to make more money……….
through population growth. Standard measures of GDP do not reflect, for example, the degradation of the environment, the depreciation of natural resources or declines in
individuals’ quality of life.
“Economic growth requires population growth” is the basic message that Ponzi demography wants the public to believe.
Despite its allure, Ponzi demography’s advocacy for forever-increasing population growth is ultimately unsustainable.
Thoughts – anxiety over Ponzi demography…
The various debate speeches in Parliament, particularly the speech of the Top Man, should assure the audience that the proposal for a ‘big’ population increase is no Ponzi demography.
Increase in our population growth will slow down by 2020, then when the population reaches the optimum number(our land is finite), there will be zero population growth. At this level, our population will stabilise.
Thus our policy makers are aiming for population stabilisation which is sustainable. Therefore our population growth plan is not a Ponzi demography. :)
Life As One Of 6,900,000
I had a dream a couple of nights ago. I dreamt that I sold my tiny 2 room flat for a promise of a larger 3 room flat. My new flat turned out to be only 1 main room with 2 other shared rooms – a kitchen and a dining room. I felt cheated of a promise and I felt the very tangible dismay and despair even in my dream.
The government has decided that we will have 6.9 million bodies squeezed into our tiny land area of just over 700 square kilometres within the next 15 years.
We are now the most densely populated country in the world with the highest number of foreigners. As it is at 5.2 million people, we are really feeling the crowds and the spiralling cost of living. And we are not happy at all.
So what will life be as 1 of 6,900,000 people? This is what I would imagined it to be.
During my workday, I will have to contend with the crowds on the streets.
I will have to sit through impossible traffic jams.
My bus rides will be uncomfortable.
My train rides will be rough.
If I got sick and really needed to see the doctor, it would take a whole day and I might just be in a worse state.
Weekends by the beach will be intolerable.
Grocery shopping will be a nightmare.
I will probably never go to a mall again because of the crowds ..
And the insane parking ..
Nor will I eat out again.
If I wanted to visit our neighbours, I might just need to ride on the roof of a train!
The crowded situation will not only be during the peak hours but will be constant and persistent. With so many people on so small a plot, the crowds will be permanent.
At the rate things are progressing, I do feel terribly helpless. Even as one born and bred on this Tiny Little Red Dot, I don’t feel that I can do much nor do I feel that my voice will be heard!
Do I want 6.9 million people here? No …
Do I want the population growth to continue on this crazy pace? No ..
Do I believe the pleas and assurances that things will be ok and that we will manage? No ..
Is there another way? Yes .. There is always another way.
We do not need to continue to be the top for everything. We do not need to be THE place to live in, THE Monaco or Switzerland of Asia, THE most progressive, THE ones with the most expensive cabinet of ministers.
KC Lau @ #59,
But you forget, the kopitiam owners will be very rich because they will have a lot of biz from people having their meals and drinks outside, because it will be a hassle to cook. The trains and bus companies will make a lot of money becoz, mnay more peolple will need to be transported to and from their place of work. So too will taxi drivers. Any jams will be ok becoz the meters are still ticking. If they make less money, NTUC, being the largest owner of taxi licences will ask the govt to raise taxi fares.
NTUC supermarkets all will make more biz becoz of larger population. Malls, food courts, small hotels, Geylang, all will make more money. Rentals will all increase, whether for houses or for shops, food courts or kopitiams. GST will increase, so too will levies for FTs. Everybody doing biz will make more money, houses will became more expensive, inflation will be higher. This will be Round 2 of what has happenned in the last 7 to 10 years.
More money will be made and efficiency will rise, because it will be easier to cook for more people and transport more people than less. This will mean higher ‘productivity’.
Our civil service will also hae higher revenue, justifying themselves with another round of salary increase. All old and unproductive (read not employed) people will have to pay more for less. Those who do not have a special skill, will have to compete with the FTs from poorer countries who are willing to work for less money, becoz they cannot get jobs in their own country. So while you are staying in Singapore, you will be working like you are in Myanmar or Cambodia, becoz they will compare your skill as one with those cleaners in Cambodia or Myanmar, but your costs will be in S$, in S$ rates. Only your salary will be close to that of the Cambodians or Myanmarese. Isn’t that wonderful, working like a cleaner in Cambodia, but staying in Singapore. Of course if you stay in Sinagpore, you will have to pay S$ rates for your eggs, char kway teow etc.
Isn’t this wonderful? Many bizmen will be happy to have the “buzz”, like being able to eat in a famous overseas restaurant but in Singapore, watch foreign entertainment, but in Singapore. Those who cannot afford this will have to eat Singapore food, but at a Singapore rate, ie pay for the service staff in S$ rates, sit in a restaurant in S$ rentals. transport yourself to the restaurant by a Singapore car, the most expensive car in the whole universe.
Don’t you see it now? What a wonderful world it will be then. Too bad if you don’t like to hear Pavarotti sing, or dance to Viennese waltz by a Viennese orchestra, or eat food made by Cat Cora, all the way from LA in USA.
Of course you will have a small price to pay, ie a little bit more crowded. Your house will be smaller, your bed also smaller, car also smaller, meals also smaller, parks smaller, bikes also smaller, foldie or velos, corridor smaller becoz your neighbour will want to use some space to keep his bike, shoes, pets, barang-barang, etc in the corridor because his house is now smaller. If you have more children, then all things being equal, ceteris paribus, your house will become smaller.
Isn’t this good news? We are so lucky to have a govt that cares for us and knows all our problems. Our country will be very rich, our S$ very strong, our houses, assets like cars, houses, boats, clubs, will be more expensive and we will have the ‘atas’ class, becoz we can afford to pay more thatn other people. Even Australia cannot compete with us. OUr houses will be more expensive, so too our gardens, flowers, pets, cars, hotels, restaurant meals. Many things other countries cannot afford, ours will be more expensive, so we can boast how rich we are. Even to the white man. How lucky we are!!!
#59 KC Lau and #60 Charles Chua “LIKED”
Jassmine Teo @ #58
In 3rd paragraph, you asserted that ” Increase in our population growth will slow…….reaches the optimum number (our land is finite), there will zero population growth…….”. This is what exactly Ponzi scheme has postulated. It is constrained by resources.
When the population has ground to a halt, so is the economic growth.
Similarly, in Madoff’s Ponzi investment strategy, when the new investors decreased dramatically, the ascension has reached the pyramid, then the whole scheme collapsed.
Therefore when only population growth is used to drive the economy the Ponzi demography will prevail.
The above trap is valid for all countries-big and small. It is a matter of time span to reach the critical point. Countries like Australia with its vast land mass and other resources may take many more decades for Ponzi demography to kick in.
How then can countries avoid or mitigate such a crisis before they get caught in such a spiral?
There are many economies which are not or refuse to be sucked into such a vortex. Examples are Sweden, Norway, Switzerland and Germany. Their population growth has stabilised, yet their economies are sound. Typically, the
export demands for their goods and services are high. They have invested in foreign countries thereby contributing to their national income. For example, in China’s major cities, the brands of cars are predominantly Audi and Volkswagon.
Countries can also improve their advantage by naturing talent through education to drive the economy thereby achieving high-yield economic activities.
Hi KC Lau,
The comment you just posted has been put on hold, and will be deleted.
I am fully aware what is considered politics and what is considered current affairs. What you have justed posted is politics. This is not accepted under the club rules.
Terence Seah
Terence #63,
I just check to see which post is under moderation.
Found none. So, I presume you are referring to Post #59.
I DISAGREE that Post #59 should be deleted. There is no mention of anything “political”. Didin’t the Thread Heading stated – Share your thoughts?
So, what’s wrong with KC Lau’s thoughts (or dreams) about the situations that he “sees” cometh Singapore crowded with 6.9 million population?
Hence, I opt to leave the Post #59 there, where and as it is. TQ.
@ #62
This is a complement to the previous observation. Population growth strategy is not a panacea for all economic ills. Using population growth repeatedly to generate economic growth is short-lived.
It is likened to being addicted to quick-fix drug of foreign labour.
Hi Robert @62; 65
I quote from J Chamie’s paper on ponzi demography:
“The sooner nations reject ponzi demography and make the needed transition from ever increasing population growth to population STABILIZATION(my own highlight), the better the prospects for all of humanity…”
i believe the goal of our population white paper recommendations is population STABILIZATION.
The countries you mentioned as having “sound economies” are welfare state. Please read The Brussels Journal from the internet. There’s an article entitled “The Welfare State: The Root of Europe’s problems”
@62
Here is the full quote from Chamie:
“moving gradually towards population stabilization, while not a panacea for the world’s problems, will make it far easier to address problems such as climate change…”
Chamie is advocating population stabilization type of population growth to prevent a ponzi demography.
cheers!
Dear all,
The views expressed so far makes interesting reading, some varied, some perceptive and some rather cheeky. Those who are sitting at the sideline, and keeping quiet, quick quick let us have your views before the shc website hangup for upgrading on the 19th February.
For your information, this saturday 4pm, 16th February there is a public gathering at Speakers Corner and a large crowd is expected and is likely to generate further interests and discussions on such a far reaching subject which affects everyone, young and not so young, even generations to come.
Perhaps after more views have been expressed by our members, we could do a simple survey just among SHC members to see who is for and who is against. The results could be reflective of how senior citizens like us feel about the population issue.
Since this post come out, I have prevented to read its comments, as the topic is too serious for me, and many of its comments are so long. Until I read the link of Ann Giri (C#46). I learn the term “Ponzi Demography”. I felt interest and read the thro’ the comments
I have figured out some questions and my opinions on them are as follows:
Q1. Is Singapore population growth is Ponzi Scheme?
I agreed with Jassmine’s view, the population growth is not a Ponzi Scheme (C#66). A Ponzi scheme is an investment operation that pays return to its investors from the money collected from them and the subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by running any business. So the number of the investors is “the more the better”
But our population growth will boot our economic growth. Sometimes the economic growth can surpass the population growth. Furthermore our PM Lee assure that the stated 6.9m population is more for city development purpose, there should be less than (or much less than) 6.9m in 2030. It is not “the more the better”
Actually we have such a ???, ???? government, we should say Singaporean ???.
Q2. Can Singapore accommodate 6.9m population and still keep a good living standard?
I always have such a figure in my mind (I don’t know where and when I get it) – HK’s area is twice that of Singapore, but the usable area of Singapore is twice that of HK. The city development of HK when it was under the British control is a mess compared with Singapore. I think if HK can accommodate more than 7m population, so sure can Singapore. Furthermore, I found Singapore is becoming more and more beautiful than I was first immigrated here
Q3 Can Singapore’s economic growth match the population growth? How about the cost of living.
This should not only consider Singapore alone, it should also consider our neighbour Asean countries. I don’t mean in direct proportion, but in reverse proportion.
When I chatted with my HK friends about the relation of Singapore and other Asean countries, we always use ???? to describe it. Singapore is a cunning and work hard fox, and the other countries is a lazy tiger. They are never a real competitor to Singapore and Singapore got a lot of advantages from it.
Since the passed economic crisis and the continuing Europe crisis, some emerging countries such as China, India, Brazil…become more and more important to the Western Countries, this including the Asean countries.
A lot of FTA are signed between the Western Countries and the Asean Countries. So the Asean Countries can become the real competitor of Singapore. If they do better, our economic chance will become less. When there are many chances, people is a resource, otherwise, people will become a burden.
The cost of living should be higher than now, but if the economic growth can match the population growth, problem is not big.
Q4. The get alone among the local Singaporean and the foreign Singaporean.
Many comments above are complaining the behaviour of the foreign Singaporean. If they are only our Silver hair’s opinions, it will be a peanut. But if our kids also have the similar opinion in their mind, it will be a time bomb.
Hope God bless Singapore!
Hi Jassmine @66
The parameters of “Population Stabilization” are not well
defined. A country which employs population growth solely to drive economic growth may become too dependent on such a quick-fix remedy resulting in the onset of the Ponzi demography.
On the other hand, another country which is driven by other economic activities to reach the goals of economic growth may achieve population stabilization after which no massive immigration is needed.
The Nordic countries which I mentioned have in the past attained economic growth and reached population stabilization.
They are welfare states in which the government assumes the
principal responsibility for the general welfare of the
people. They have a common vision for a society that combines economic growth with high living standards and good working conditions. They share broad characteristics.
These generally include a commitment to full employment, social protections for all citizens, social inclusion and democracy.
As to whether the practices of welfare states are still
relevant in the present context of globalisation and competitions from Asia, Russia and Latin America, it is debatable. We shall leave the subject aside.
It is not within our scope to discuss world’s problems such as climate change as mentioned by Charmie.
#67 “a simple survey” How about answering to the question ” Does population aging matter?”. One just need to choose the following answer : “Yes” or “No” or “It depends”. The answer can be catogorizes into three views. The pessimistic emphasize the negative impact of an aging population on the labor market and the economy. The optimistic view points to self-adjustment mechanisms in the economy concerned. The non-deterministic view, suggests that the outcome could be either positive or negative depending on how economy and society respond to population aging process.
Stay Healthy! Be Happy! :)
Hi Jassmine,
Have read the link you mentioned (but wonder if it will come out to the site). Wow, so long and I have no patient to finish it.
It give me the impression that: a member of a team (a long term one), cannot jump out of the box to accept the new leadership, and give out his grievance. This will always happen in an organization, no matter it is a big one or a small one.
Actually I don’t agree the reason he give for the party’s loss. I think the lose is a trend, a must!
Now the % is 9 to 1, I hope the trend will continue until it become 7 to 3
Understand what I mean, if not, forget about it.
My thoughts:
While the Singaporeans have been making so much noise, the new PAP MPs are very quiet. Are they as usual hiding behind the aprons of the heavyweights! Their future– cloudy :-p
Just a tongue in cheek sugeestion. Perhaps, the governemt could organize the population, en masse, buy up Johor properties, using CPF, and set up township to accomote our people. The FT will then work in Malaysia ( maids, nurses etc). Build MRT train to connect the township to Singapore.
Malaysia happy, we happy :-)
#72, What i did previously was contract out my manpower recruitment to an sg company. They have an office in jb to interview employees according to my requirement. For one 12 seater passenger bus i sign a contract for 15 manpower. They don’t stay in sg. Earn sg dollar to live in jb.
Stay Healthy! Be Happy! :)
Ha ha
Must login and say something in order to remain as a member, yes?
Hi Johnny #70
”Does population aging matter?” Yes. ref. Robert Ong #14 “ this is our turf and must be treasured and protected”.
I will put myself in the Non-deterministic view. I like what Architect Liu Thai Ker had said Quote “……we have to look at the issues rationally and calmly with foresight, skill and brave hearts. We have to look past symptoms and identify causes. Only then can we find appropriate solutions with minimum mistakes Unquote.
“I wanna b healthy cos I wanna b happy”
cheers
freda
Hi Andrew Y #68; 71
Your views from your perspective – former immigrant, now citizen – are refreshing. You can see more of the big picture.
Wish i could comment on #71, but since i’m not sure what you’re referring to, I’m unable to. Anyway, your views are refreshing.
cheers!
GOOD to have this forum site back. Felt lost for a day without it.
I have said something about foreign labour, in response to a writer (who is an employer who is crying out loud for foreign engineers and specialists). I must say the St Times has done some editing to make my letter more “palatable” to the public. My original version is much more…robust.
For the benefit of those who have not read the letter I am replying to (ST 13 Feb):
http://www.straitstimes.com/archive/wednesday/premium/forum-letters/story/foreign-labour-curbs-may-hurt-singaporean-workers-20130213