I am revamping this thread.
Many people are not even aware of the basic options out there. How can they creatively structure their finances?
Let’s scan the opportunities together. If you find some interesting program, post it here and share. Keep it short and in summary. Provide links to details. Declare if you are a vendor or have commercial interest. We can still learn from you but we would like to know where you are coming from.
(Disclaimer : Unless otherwise declared, I have no commercial interest in things discussed in this thread. )
Surprise, surprise.
The subject which I thought will be of most concern to all SHC has attracted absolutely no comment!
Does this mean that this is not an issue to all? And everyone is financially independent enough to run out their lap of honour in style.
KT,
On the contrary, this subject of whether one has enough retirement monies to last the lifetime is of top priorty to someone who is still working.
It is for this reason, that I am of the opinion that, for many people, the 4% or 5% interest one gets is too low to make any difference in their decisions. Basically, the principle or the amount of liquid cash available at the time of retirement is worringly too low.
The HDB flat may be there; but it’s not easily liquidated. What then are the humanly options? I remember what Tim use to say. There is hope in 4D, toto and Big Sweep. And really, we know one has to be very lucky to win the substantial 2nd or 3rd prize. And, this goes on every weekend.
The Singapore stock market has also been very tempting, At the same time, the fast growing India and Chinese economies do look very attractive, maybe or at least for the next 10-15 years. The potential gains from investments in the different markets far exceed the interest, generated from the 100 to 200 hundred thousand dollars, at the time of retirement. Yes, and no doubt, these are risks and gambles. And, while one is still working, gambling is an alternative to increasing the basic principle.
When one reaches 54, the thinking begins. I have friends with these thoughts “Gosh, I dont really have to worry because I still have a job. I shall work until 62. After 62, i should have enough for the next few years. I can easily get a job one year after starting my retirement. Just, let me relax, I have been working hard all my life. Three years down the road, the money is all gone.”
Concept-wise, I think the minimum sum and partial withdrawal are brilliant ideas.
At 55, how much does one have to put into an annuity? 100 or 200k? And, how much is the interest? It’s nice of you to highlight the new products and the $7,500 one can get per annum.
This has made many SilverHairs decide to try the route of managing their own monies, hoping for better control and sureness. A quick look at the Straits Times money page; advertising inviting people to learn how to make a few thousand dollars a month or the first million.
Sometime, I do think annuities are basically advanced fixed deposit savings. And, that retirement planning is a far broader management of one’s income and expenses.
All said, I think when I reach 55, I would put still put some money into an annuity. I would still work after 62, and make sure my insurance premiums are paid for on time.
Maybe, I can also make some money from car boot sales. No toto and no 4Ds.
By the way, I have difficulties opening the Manulife link. Is the link correct?
And, when you have time, write and tell us how you manage your monies.
Terence Seah
The Manulife link is good
http://www.retirement.com.sg/sect2_incomeforlife.html
Try use a PC not Blackberry.
Income has a very nice page on retirement planning. Set yourself an income goal from $1K to 6K per month. Then compare this benchmark program against other options and providers.
http://income.com.sg/insurance/fplan/illustration.asp
For details of their 3 annuity plans scroll to the links at the bottom of this page
http://www.income.com.sg/insurance/savings.asp
Looks too good to true? Probably is. What’s the catch? Can you see the weakness or where it can be improved?
KT, surprise not for you did come across to me as an insurance guy pitching for sales notwithstanding yr disclaimer. Also, the mention of $400k to $800k is finger licking good and remains that cos only 40-80 cents rest snugly in my pockets most of the time.
I agree with Terence that the interests offered by banks & investment institutions, against the backdrop of runaway property prices, are paltry.
Lucky for Terence, i cdnt find a long enough bamboo last nite to whisper my hot soccer tips into his ears.
My $ was down on SAF to beat ALbirex 4-3 which wd hv paid me $550 for a $10 outlay, with all 23 blokes on field working out a sweat for me. Well, that wd hv been the score if not for a idiot who kicked the ball into his own net.
So I lost $10 there but managed to make $20 nett.
I am a firm believer of “a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush” so will clutch on to my $ than to let someone spin it for me so annuity is never my cup of tea.
I look forward to Terence making his first $10 fr car butt sales and then walk him to sporepools to lay his soccer bets which he hasnt excluded, and see his prosper, making his next million multiples.
I am also not in annuity. It is not rich enough for me. But it is a very good platform for benchmarking retirement programs. I thought it would be a good start talking point.
I am also a betting man except that I do it in investments. The most aggressive variety is autotrading in volatile markets with 200 times leverage.
So how good is punting football. Does your system allow you a consistent regular income. What kind of ROI can you expect? How frequent must one bet and in what quantum to achieve such results.
Actually gambling is also a form of fund management. The house who runs the sports book “manages” your fund. The “fund management fee” thay collect is reflected in the odds that they give out on any bet. From this perspective, gmabling is actually a very expensive form of fund management.
The lowest cost of investment is forex trading. 2/3 pips (ie approx 0.001%) transaction cost with 1:1 odd (either up or down) and no commission or any other hidden costs. Compare this to football.
Whatever name we give it, however kindly we call it. it’s still gambling when, after putting in $x, we seek a return of $x plus with an inherent risk, low it may be, of losing all.
You must hv that knack to punt in football. You must be able to sniff out that kelong element, be aware of the players’condition, whether their wives are with them when away for a tournament lasting for weeks. It’s not a rocket science and so you dont hv or need a system but do need a lot of hunch & feel.
The income can hit you like an avalanche rendering terms like ROI totally irrelevant. For as little as $10, you cd take back $2,500 or more and that is happening not infrequently.
If you put the lowest cost of investment in forex trading, you are not expected to make 250 times even with many ticks moving yr way. And when the position reverses, you get hit no less. (Haha, I actually lost my fortune on black monday 191087 trading futures, not too dissimlar from forex)
Like Mark Lee said, you hv a 50% winning chance in any form of gambling so if you cant be on the upside of this 50%, heeee, you must stick to pasting stamps, saving the posb way.
There we have it. If you knew that he knew what she did but didn’t want him to know before a tournament, you probably have an edge on the odds. Knack. If you are good at this you can also try dogs and horses. Animal form sheets are simpler to analyse than man.
If no “Knack”, you may be better advised to stick to tossing coins for decisions or to more conventional investments.
There is another subtle but important difference. Even if you have all the juicy news, the best you can do in football is to bet as a punter. You can never expect to play the house advantage as a bookie.
On the other hand, with financial derivatives, one can devise sophisticated hedging systems eg include the writing of options. Effectively, be the bookmaker of the deal. Its your choice. Punter or bookie.
Hahaha, KT, what talking you there with this gibberish “you knew that he knew what she did but didn’t want him to know before a tournament” when my point was simply this : sex with their loved ones b4 a match helps players to de-stress.
So you hv conceded that animal form sheets are simpler to analyse than man and there’s where the sad truth lies.
No horse is trained to run on its own. There’s a jockey – a man or woman – astride the horse who can turn pegasus into a pigkiasu. So even with the knack you still will break yr neck nevermind that you hv read the man’s form sheet, not missing out his birth certificate, report book and lee’s memoir.
So better to toss yr coins together with the animal’s form sheet into the wishing well, wishing that the jockey wont do you in.
You are quite wrong there when you argued that you can never expect to play the house advantage as a bookie. Heard of tua bui L? Or Sporepools? If there’s no big money to make as the bookie, astute Sporepools wd not hv seen it as a lucrative biz to go into.
But of cos if you’re a small-time bookie collecting bets fr kindergarten toddlers then you’re doomed fr the word go…….their mothers will rain umbrellas & broomsticks on you even on Mother’s day, for stealing their kids’ candy money.
Forex & financial derivatives?
Heard of George Sorrows? Heard of Bang Niggera, Petronuts? Put them together and you weave out a story of a bang almost going bankrupt, nvm that such a national bang wd hv better than sophisticated hedging systems ever devised by men.
If that is not enough to convince you, wind back to 1997 when the oriental pearl lost USD15 billion fending off a currency speculation assault.
Suffice to say that when you choose to invest – an euphemism for gambling – be prepared to lose. Otherwise the time-tested stamp pasting is still the best. Or find some pots to grow yr own vegetables and share yr hdb flat with livestocks which you rear as food and for the wet market, not money market.
Besides stamps there are also tulips and noveau art. In fact anything, including finger games at K-O.
On bookie, I mean you and I. You’re right. Joe Bloc cannot play bookie or bookmaker in a sports book. On the other hand, you and I have the option to be effectively the bookmaker in a derivative transaction. Eg if you short you get paid interest first on the wager by the other guy irregardless of the outcome of the bet. (actually a bookie is not the common misnomer for the kopitiam runner but short for bookmaker or the professional who actually makes the odds and hedge the bets)
On man and his animal, you can eliminate man by punting punting cocks, spiders or dogs. With dogs, you can run or fight them (Animal lovers note: I do not necesarily approve; just reporting facts). But I have yet seen anyone trying to ride a dog. In fact, I think the role of a jockey is highly overrated. On a guided track, all animals are trained to give their all out. IMO, the only use of the jockey is to cut the spurs and hold back the rein when Big Brother calls to throw the race. That and, of course, giving interviews to sports pages. You can’t expect the horse to give a speech.
I may be wrong. But do you see the jockey running around the track if he’s that good. Of course, you can’t expect a Singaporean to know the difference. I was on a riding track in Grand Canyon and heard a fellow traveller complain that his horse was very slow. We were on a donkey track and it was a donkey!
Didn’t particularly intend to go to the booty sale until you offered to head out to the football pools afterwards and show us how to play ball. Is that a promise?
Hee- hee.
Haha, KT, in my mind there’s really no difference btwn a bookmaker and a bookie other than the former twirls his tongue to confuse; the other blabbers on yr face instead of into the spittoon. One wears the suit & black tie; the other comfortable in his singlets & cha kiaks.
Both are conmen, no better or worse than the other.
I once owned some horses. The trainer did say that my guys were ready but he was no wiser that the jockeys werent. Remember nano nano, a napshot, slowly away at the gates and soon after, edward c jumped off ?
Sure, it’s my promise to show you how to play balls. Got to be in the plural of cos. Or did I get it wrong for you here?
Heeeeee……………..
Wah, this post has no participants except KT and Tim..other than one long comment from Terence..and now one short useless comment by me..
Joy,
You have to press Refresh. You are the 11th comment.
Short is not necessarily useless. Long is not necessarily good. Short or long you can make a lot of money or lose a fortune.
The difference is whether you make real sense of things and see through the illusions that surround us.
(resubmitted as a comment to a revamped post)
Money not enough? CPF can only see you so far. $4K pa on $100K SA to be precise for limited quantum and period is hardly subsistence.
Consider using the latest annuity products to finance your retirement for life. Here’s one scenario. For every $100K annuity that you buy at 55 and delay drawdown at 65, you will get $7,500 for life. An affordable minimal lifestyle for most ranges from $30K to $60K pa. So all you need is $400K to $800K of savings to set you for life. There are many ways to cut this cake. Talk to the two main providers Income and Manulife and get the best deal for yourself if you want to take this route.
(See BT Manulife launches new retirement product – June 9, 2007). Also see http://www.retirement.com.sg/sect2_incomeforlife.html.
What do you think? Do you have a better idea. Share.
(Disclaimer: I have totally no commercial interest in the above. I am not selling anything. Whilst it is one of the better comprehensive annuity program that I have seen so far, I prefer to manage my own money proactively. Unless you like taking risks, it may work well for most.)
I joined SHC recently and participated in two recent events namely Sembawang Park and HSBC Tree Top Walk by SM Lee and Robert and Kristy Quek.
Whilst browsing through the postings, I noticed this posting which is close to my heart. I am an Insurance Advisor from NTUC Income. However, I wish to declare that I am not posting in hope of clinching an sales but to share my knowledge in Annuity and some other saving and investment products. I believe most of us do have our own Insurance Advisor, Financial Advisor etc. It would be best to contact them for a review of your needs. Your Advisor will be in the best position to access and recommend you the product/s to meet your objective/s through a financial need analysis.
All products be it Annuity, Saving or Investment are designed to cater to different
needs.
An Annuity is intended to provide a lifetime income for a sum of money one parked with an Insurance Company. It has quite similar to pension. NTUC Income’s Annuity pays the annuity instalments on an incremental basis through the declaration of a annual bonus which is intended to somewhat cushion inflation.
Besides Annuity, there is the Growth Policy which is a Capital Guaranted Plan which offers a 3 to 4.50% yield depending on the term. This plan is particularly useful to people who wants Capital protection and are risk adverse.
For those who are prepared to accept some degree of risks, there is a range of Investment Funds. One can expect higher returns commensurate with the risks he or she is willing to accept.
Depending on funds availabilty, it would be best to separate the risks through a diversified portfolio.
Besides being financially independant, one should also look into Medical Insurance which can burn a big hole in your pocket.
Hi guys!
I just have to jump in when you’re discussing annuities…
I was fortunate to buy my annuity back in 2002 when I turned 55. Then the minimum sum was $70,000 and the monthly payout at age 62 (!!!) would be $607.
Now, with the present low interest rates, you can hardly get $500 with a minimum sum of $99,600! So if you’re within the annuity age band, think again before plonking your money into an annuity.
I would keep my money with the CPF and earn the 4% interest in the Special Account. And wait till I’m 62 to decide if I still want to purchase an annuity. Hopefully interest rates and annuity payments will be higher then.
Of course, this is only my opinion and you should seek the advice of a competent financial advisor before making any financial decision.
Here’s an excellent article by famous journalist Dr. Money comparing CPF and Income’s annuity in 2005. I will reproduce it here verbatim and comment later.
The principles are sound but the rates may be a bit dated. What’s the bet? You are betting whether you live beyond a key old age. Here the magic age is 92.
————————————————————–
Why buy an annuity?
By Larry Haverkamp
mail@AskDrMoney.com
October 18, 2005
ON 25 Sep, Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong announced that the Government is studying methods to boost CPF members’ investment returns.
Plans will be announced within a month and implemented over the next one or two years. Two new initiatives are likely.
First, a Private Pension Plan (PPP). Likely to be an opt-out plan in order to get enough participants to keep costs low.
Of the more than 400 CPF-approved funds (unit trusts and ILPs), most have high expense ratios. On average, they charge 3 per cent on your investment per year. It is double what is charged in other countries, like the US.
This is a key reason why more than 70 per cent of CPF-approved funds have failed to earn more than the ordinary account’s 2.5 per cent over the past 10 years.
The new opt-out PPP would change that. Its expense ratio would likely be close to the lowest-cost fund in the market – 0.3 per cent.
IS AN ANNUITY FOR YOU?
Second would be an opt-out scheme for annuities. At present, fewer than 10 per cent of eligible CPF members buy an annuity.
Most receive the CPF Board’s 20-year payout of the minimum sum – $90,000. It pays you $711 a month from age 62 to 82, good enough for most since only 35 per cent of us are expected to live beyond age 82.
Your other choice is to buy an annuity from one of seven insurers. The average fixed payout is $446 a month for life vs CPF’s $711 a month for 20 years.
Therein lies the trade-off: Lower payments for life (annuity) vs higher payments for 20 years (CPF). Which is best?
Before I give you the answer, consider the alternatives.
At age 55, your special account money is transferred to a retirement account where you have three choices: leave your retirement account with the CPF Board; put the money in a bank fixed deposit or buy an annuity from an insurance company.
Here is my recommendation:
– Do not put the money in a bank fixed deposit. It pays the least.
– Do not buy an annuity at age 55. Instead, defer your purchase until just before you turn 62. That way you can continue to earn your retirement account’s risk-free 4 per cent interest from age 55 to 62. It is more than what an annuity pays.
– Just before age 62, you must decide whether you need to buy an annuity. The answer seems clear: No. The CPF Board’s $711 a month for 20 years is too good a deal.
It takes 30 years – from age 62 to 92 – for the typical annuity at $446 a month to add up to CPF’s $711 a month paid over 20 years. Nearly everyone will get a larger payout by leaving their $90,000 retirement account with the CPF Board.
Only 2 per cent of the population will receive a higher payout from an annuity by virtue of living past 92 years of age.
One big exception is NTUC Income’s variable annuity. It has 50 per cent of the market and pays considerably more than other annuities.
NTUC Income’s annuity is the best
AT first glance, NTUC Income’s annuity isn’t anything special. It guarantees $458 a month compared with $446 a month for the average annuity. There isn’t much difference.
What makes NTUC Income’s annuity special is that it includes a 2 per cent non-guaranteed annual bonus. This changes its annuity from ‘very average’ to ‘quite generous’.
That extra 2 per cent boosts its total payments to $153,600 over 20 years (from age 62 to 82).
Still, this is less than CPF’s 20-year payout of $170,000. It suggests you are better off staying with CPF and taking its total payments of $170,000 vs NTUC Income’s $153,600.
Surprisingly, this is the wrong conclusion.
CONCEPT OF INSURANCE
It is because of the concept of insurance. At all costs, we want to avoid reaching old age without a dollar in our pocket. As you can imagine, it isn’t easy finding a job when you are 90 years old.
An annuity ensures that your life won’t end on such a sad note. The CPF Board’s total payments are fixed at $711 a month for 20 years. It totals $170,000. At age 84, NTUC Income’s annuity catches up with CPF Board’s $711 monthly payments. At that age, both payouts total $170,000.
Should you be fortunate enough to last until age 92, NTUC Income’s payments will total $256,500. It far exceeds CPF’s $170,000.
The dollars, however, tell only half the story. The other half is the insurance and peace of mind that an annuity buys. It guarantees that you won’t die broke.
Hi ronald lim,
Would be nice if you can comment and update for Income on Dr. Money’s analysis. What is the annuity payout today and is the magic age still 92?
Some say others like Manulife pays better. What say you?
Hi Ken,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
There are two age milestones when considering annuities.
Firstly : Age 55 is generally when you have to first decide if you want to jump into a delayed annuity. A delayed annuity is where you will get the best return for life after payout starts at 62.
Secondly : If you think that you will outlive the magic age then annuity is better for you than CPF. In Dr. Money’s analysis in 2005, the magic age is 92.
Here’s other important tips on annuities.
(a) Search the market for better rates. Extend the search globally if you are prepared to take in currency risks as well. Eg UK Prudential’s (Single Life, Level, No guarantee) pays 10.1% pa.
See http://www.h-l.co.uk/pensions_and_retirement/annuities_tables_rates.hl?theSource=PPCAG&Override=1&gclid=CJfmr_r89IwCFRLxhgodQB95Fg
(b) Besides betting on outliving the magic age, you should also consider your health risks in old age. If you suspect that your medical bills are going to run to significantly more than average then you should set aside for medical before investing the balance into an income retirement program like annuity. Typically, you would increase medical insurance cover and/or manage the cost eqaution by, say, moving overseas to where total health costs are lower. Consider this. If you are really sick, it is academic to talk about income to support a certain lifestyle. Your lifestyle will be hospital and hospital bills.
(c) Here’s what Michaevelli would say about annuity. Don’t worry. Magic age is not important. If you “habis” or wiped out after 20 years of CPF and the govt cannot squeeze any more juice from your loved ones, your status is automatically upgraded from senior retiree to social welfare. You simply live off the state.
Hmmm….. Can anyone who has tried Michaevelli share your experience.
Hi KT and CPF-stucked guys!
Dr Money’s article and your comments underline the points that I made:
Keep your money in the CPF Special Account and earn that measly 4% until you hit 62 to decide what to do with it (opt for the CPF payouts or buy an immediate annuity if rates are more attractive at that time).
I would contend your magic age of 92: This is arrived at by taking the annual payouts (the Income annuity includes the NON-GUARANTEED 2% bonus) and dividing it by the total annuity premium. So, if the current minimum sum is $99,600 and the annual payout at age 62 is $6,000; then you’d have to live for 16.6 years after age 62 to get back the initial investment. This is the simplistic calculation which doesn’t take into account interest costs, inflation, etc.
What I’m trying to point out is that an annuity has another aspect to it: which is the insurance element. This part is really downplayed by the companies: How many Singaporeans can live to the magic age 92 or 78 which happens to be the current male mortality average? Insurance companies factor in the mortality age in annuity calculations (just like in life insurance policies).
So don’t think that insurance companies are charitable institutions or “huay kuans”. They operate like any other hard-nosed business and are in it to make a profit.
Anyway, we can’t do very much else with our CPF Minimum Sum. So a foreign annuity would not be a choice at present, besides facing the currency and market risks. And the annual $6,000 payout would just buy us kopi-o in 20 years time!
An interesting discussion.
According to senor smart alec, we shd all live beyond 85 into the 90s and so we’ll hv to work till then as the retirement age is raised; hence, our collection of cpf monies.
That being the case, I wont think too much how I cd make more $ with my cpf if I am unlikely to use it.
(Years ago, cpf was liberalised for investment in stocks & shares, and my almost $1/2m invested thus hit a low of $127k in year 2000. Thankfulky. it’s now a more recognisable $320k plus).
Still licking my wounds from listening to all these authoritative advice & plannings, I hv decided to play the contrarian game and am convinced that a bird in my own hands is worth all the world’s rhetorics from muddlers hiding in the bush.
The stock mart still looks good for a couple of months and will then start selling out.
Meanwhile, the little punts here & there still attract.
Hi Tim,
We have not forgotten.
Until we hear your exposition on football pools, we will keep our retirment plans open. We all look forward to booty sale (ie the 1st million) after which we get a first hand mentoring from you (ie the money too many).
If you bought shares in 2000 and sell now, you will be collecting “siput” (shellfish) at low tide at home in Sentosa Cove. So its a question of timing and opportunity.
Now. Can’t sleep. Can’t eat. Waiting…..
Hee hee
Haha, KT, ah Tan wont be too happy if I expound too much of his secrets here. The last time 5151 whacked (reportedely)$15m off him and he almost su nannan so still cant sleep till this day (nvm it wasnt his $).
Fair enough, we all will hv to plan for our retirement even if, according to what’s being worked out, we’ll only get to retire at age 90.
Cruel? Not at all, it’s a caring society we’re all building so it’s planned that we shall all be gainfully employed, octagenarian or not.
Alas for me, i bought all my shares fr 1986 onwards………some of the companies hv long closed shop.
Ken,
Thanks. I stand corrected. Magic age according to Dr.Money’s 2005 analysis is 84. This close enough to your rule of thumb estimate of 78.
“At age 84, NTUC Income’s annuity catches up with CPF Board’s $711 monthly payments. At that age, both payouts total $170,000.”
At 92, aanuities is far ahead of CPF.
“NTUC Income’s payments will total $256,500. It far exceeds CPF’s $170,000.”
Time is money. If you earn only 4% until 62 you have run out of time to build a nestegg for retirement. Unless you have separate sources of income, your passive income may not be able to sustain you.
The rule of thumb is easy enough. You should aim for a passive income of $3 to 4K per month to ensure a comfortable lifestyle in retirement. This assumes that you have fully paid up on your big ticket itmes eg home, club and car.
What does this mean? On a long term 4% pa, you need the equivalent investment of $1 million to build this stream of income. If you can find 8% pa then the quantum required falls to $500K. If you have $500K and you put half into annuity at 6% pa, you need to balance the rest of funds with a return of 10% pa
Question is how ?
Here’s the big picture on the real estate option for your retirement “KLKK” planning.
If you derive a net rental of $2K per month (after conservancy, interest, tax, depreciation) etc, you need the equivalent of two rental properties to draw the magic $4K per month.
Today’s market, you will need to invest in $1m per property to draw that rental. However, you stand to make significant gains esepcially with en-bloc. If you hit a home run, the re-invested gain into, say, a passive annuity will set you in a troublefree retirement.
Hi KT,
I have not been in Singapore long enough, to understand the workings of en-bloc here.
Do you still see opportunities in investing in a $1m property, and drawing this magic $4K per month? And, do you also see opportunities with en-bloc sales?
Terence Seah
So it’s a $1m outlay to try make $2k over 365 days……..smthg tim ah liu has neither the $ nor the patience to do & it’s smthg for those who dont really love $.
For those who do love Encik Yusoff’s gorgeous looks and want to not just see but also keep his big picture, what abt a 35% return over 24 hours?
Take Venezuela to beat Bolivia.
And for those who want more – 125% over the same period – go for Uruguay & Venzuela to beat their respective opponents (double bet) in 2morow morning’s COPA America.
As usual, a caveat.
If you buy a house, you still hv 4 walls to choose which one to bang yr head on but in soccer bet, you only hv a 4 x 2 inch paper to burn a tiny hole in yr pocket.
Tim,
Quick one. Its 2 to 3K per month for $1m property. You typically invest 20% cash and 80% loan. So its really $2/3K per month for $200K cash.
$2K per year? You can’t even survive on porridge everyday.
Don’t give tips. Just teach us how to pick winners.
“Give us crayfish, and we’ll have crayfish for a meal. Teach us how to catch crayfish and we’ll
have lobster everyday.”
Hope that YK is not listening to this…. hee-hee.
KT, $1m to make a paltry $3k over 365 days.
Now, come follow me.
For every $100 bet, take home $400 every 24 hours.
You work it out if the initital investment isnt $100 but $1,000,000………….not over 365 days but every day………….
Walk faster & hold on to my aprons, forget abt yr dog & cat and yr floor mat otherwise bull gades, gorge sorrows, mahatail…..are all going to cut yr queue.
Tim,
Please rewind again.
It is 3K per month or 36K per year. Not $3K per year.
This is a common confusion because people normally quote CPF at 4% per annum on a 100K SA to arrive at the oft quoted $4K per year. Obviously this is inadequate by a factor of 10. But many people don’t even realize how far they are falling behind in their calculation.
The reason for this baseline is that an average small household spend between 30K to 40K per year in Singapore. This assumes that by senior year you have paid up all your big ticket items.
KT, sure, one can rewind, take a breather & ask for more wind to continue his rewind, the indelible truth remains……$3k over 30 days………isnt it a pittance too pitifully small, almost a penitence, considering one’s investment remains a huge $1m?
In contrast, the same $1m becomes $4m every 24 hours………even a toddler knows which sugar daddy to approach to buy him more ice creams.
Want an ice cream……a walls magnum each day? Or be content with a popsicle every 30 days?
Tim,
You forgot leverage.
Actually, you are investing $200K of your hard earned cash in property worth $1m for $3K per month in rental.
In volatile forex markets you may expect 100% pa. at 200 times leverage. If you can trade at this rate consistently, all you need to invest is $36K cash to have a passive income of $3K per month.
More risk, more return. But this is not abnormal for financial trading. In two weeks of autorading competition, the top traders are returning more than 200% return. Imagine what they can do in a year.
Effective 1 July 2007. The CPF Minimum Sum Scheme (Retirement Account) will be raised to $99,600. It pays $790 per month from age 62 for a period of 20 years i.e. till age 82.
The Classic Annuity from NTUC Income is guaranteed at $511.35 per month. It is expected to pay $599.75 or $631.25 at an annual bonus rate of 2.5% or 3.0% respectively from age 62. The payout is expected to surpass the $790 from the CPF Board to $797.95 at an annual bonus rate of 2.5% at age 76 (14 years) or $796.65 at an annual bonus rate of 3% at age 71 (9 years).
CPF pays $790 x 12 months x 20 years age 82 = $189,600
At 2.5% the total payout at age 83 = $185,638.80
At 3.0% the total payout at age 83 = $210,110.40
Ronald,
Thanks. We are updated. CPF vs Income’s annuity is whether you live beyond 71 to 76. Below 71, its CPF; above 76, its annuity; and in between its a toss up.
I think many members would like to know,
Can you raise the CPF to, say, $500K and enjoy an income exceeding $3.5K per month?
Do you advise that members pitch thier monthly financial requirements on annuity alone?
Can you comment how is Income’s product compared to competitors?
KT. Yes, you can park $500K of CPF Funds into Annuities ie. $99,600 under the Minimum Sum Scheme and the rest of the $400,400 under the Minimum Sum Plus Scheme if you are using CPF. Annuities are also available under CASH AND SRS.
For $500K, the projected income at commencement from age 62 is between $3,059.25 to $3,165.50 per month.
I normally would not recommend members with such high amount of funds to pitch all of it into Annuities. However, as I have said before Annuities are mean’t for members who are very conservative. It is a very good instrument to have to ensure you have a constant and predictable stream of income to live through retirement without worries. When looking at Annuities, it is important to look at those that pays a bonus annually.
I am sorry, I do not think it is ethical for me to comment or compare Income’s product with competitors. Each company’s product has it’s own merit and it is important that one should consider them carefully whether it meets his or hers objective/s before deciding to take it up.
I wish to reiterate that it’s best to sit down with an Advisor for a review. Afterall it cost you nothing but probably one hour or two hours of your time.
Andrew,
“For $500K, the projected income at commencement from age 62 is between $3,059.25 to $3,165.50 per month.”
I assume you mean CPF. This is equivalent to 7.34% to 7.6% return per year. How about Income? Projected with and without bonus.
Do you any links for schemes under CASH or SRS.
Whilst I agree that it cost nothing for an Advisor’s review (and if I need one I’ll definitely get you for a sitting), the problem is that the service could be too “personalised”. The session more often than not locks you into the product in question and limits one’s options. It is better that one has the “run of the field first” with quick benchmarks and lead lists. Then you can start to take a number like CPF’s 7.6% pa into perspective.
Shopping for finacial investments is not unlike shopping for a MP3 on the web.
Compare, compare, compare.
KT, it’s Ronald Lim up on the tree so you were barking up the wrong tree. Andrew probably hugs his guitar more passionately than his bolster where much of his annuities are kept.
Take it easy & relac lah……….like the Mats say & do.
Other than compulsory savings which I as a patriotic citizen will remain compliant to their whimsicals (really, do I hv a choice?), I’ll continue to support the sporepools where the returns are really good.
Pu in $15 and take back $525 in a day. Dont imagine; it actually happened yesterday to me on copa america.
Ask me for tips on the right day bcos I too can go wrong……..very wrong on an uninspired day.
In comment #35,I think you should addressed to
ronaldlimhk not me.
Ronald Lim
Andrew is correct. Comment #35 is for you. Sorry…
“For $500K, the projected income at commencement from age 62 is between $3,059.25 to $3,165.50 per month.”
I assume you mean CPF. This is equivalent to 7.34% to 7.6% return per year. How about Income? Projected with and without bonus.
Do you any links for schemes under CASH or SRS.
Whilst I agree that it cost nothing for an Advisor’s review (and if I need one I’ll definitely get you for a sitting), the problem is that the service could be too “personalised”. The session more often than not locks you into the product in question and limits one’s options. It is better that one has the “run of the field first” with quick benchmarks and lead lists. Then you can start to take a number like CPF’s 7.6% pa into perspective.
Shopping for finacial investments is not unlike shopping for a MP3 on the web.
Compare, compare, compare.
Tim,
Thanks for the tip.
I’ll check the Bodhi Knowledge Tree again. (A Bodhi Knowledge Tree does not teach Bodhi but general knowledge.) And the Tree barks the Man.
Its like the donkey and the carrot. “Collect Poor Fee” (CPF) is, of course, to collect from the donkey and give it to the carrot. When donkey reaches 62 they dangle it out to 65.
Question 1. You. Donkey or Carrot?
Question 2. How can you have your carrot and eat it too.
Stay posted on this thread…..
KT,
I’ll happily accept yr thanks & gratitude for the tips I give – very accurate normally.
But if I tipped you to bet on “Buddhi Tree” and you betted on “the Bodhi Knowledge Tree” without batting an eyelid, then you’ll never make money from my tips.
And how can you bark the Man for seeing Ma Liang as Fung Jin?
(Even as I am writing now, with 54 minutes of the Brazil v Ecuador match played, I am staring at the possibility of winning my bets on halftime-fulltime, the doubles, if Brazil scores & beats Ecuador in the next 36 minutes. Otherwise will hv to look for Andrew’s bolster where he stashes his annuities).
Sure, I like yr donkey-carrot anecdote. It’s true that only donkeys wont know what to do on the day every 5 years when it matters .
My answers to yr questions?
Question 1. You. Donkey or Carrot?
Answer : Me neither but do hv a lot of sympathies for you for answering it incorrectly, and so now thot of finding a bloke in me.
Question 2. How can you have your carrot and eat it too?
Answer : Viagra & cialis are good boosters so I dont need a carrot. But for friendship’s sake, I’ll prepare cialis 50mg and viagra 500mg for you and you can eat yr carrot up bcos you dont need it anymore.
Hi Tim,
Viagra and Cialis are keywords which are automatically flagged as objectional words in this forum. So, please stick to carrots.
Terence Seah
Hi Terence,
Do understand yr concern that certain words may be used and abused to bring out what SHC has tabooed.
But when words, like the names of medical products, are used with no sinister motive but to advance a point, their replacements will take the sting out of the read.
You’ll agree that there shd be common sense applied in the moderation of a posting.
Cheers,
tim
KT,
Brazil V Ecuador match ended, 1-0 to Brazil. That means a tidy 34% profit made in less than 12 hours……..$315 from $235 outlay.
(Break-down : 8 bets made, 6 mati, 2 menang).
Caveat – play the bet for the fun, it’s not a livelihood that you can depend on. My tipster? Believe me you…….my kiddo who doesnt even know aht a referee is for.
Tim, Tim – subtlety….. speak softly and carry big words
Ode to CarrotMan
————————-
Once there was a CarrotMan
Who ate with his CarrotCake
One CarrotViag and one CarrotCial
Got stuck with a lot of CarrotKids
————————-
Hee hee
Tim,
Wahh, so good. Ball cometh into pocket.
If we wait long, long for booty sales the season will be over.
How about dropping more tips and how to kick ball in pool today after cafe meeting today. Is it on?
KT,
This is for you, hee hee….
Ode to Donkey
Once there was a Donkey
Which thot it was hip to turn hippie
So it fed on m’juana with glee
And hangs round its neck a board saying I now hippie
Never to know that diarrhea came so quickly.
Heeee…………..
Today (rather 2morow morning)’s matches? Will have to ask my kiddo this evening and then post………
Tim,
Still talk only. Still waiting for your walk. How to play ball in pool.
Do you do this on-line. Where?
Who to win at what odds.
Tim,
Comment #43 refers.
“Break-down : 8 bets made, 6 mati, 2 menang”.
How much did you wager at what odds/payout. How did you make $315 from $235 outlay with 2 out of 8 win. You must be really backing no-hoppers and taking the long shot with your left boot.
Objection Tim Liu,
If tabooed words are being allowed for whatever reason, it will be deemed by others that it’s okay to use them, with or without sinister motive. Their replacements ARE MEANT TO take the sting out of the read.
We all agree that there shd be common sense applied to anyone posting in a public website.
BTW, the 2 of you (KT and Tim) seem to be publicing your private conversation – just like those talking loudly in a cinema.
Lily,
Missed u at the cafe talk yesterday. Your experience in actually running a cafe would have added maturity to innocence. Plenty ideas though and great brainstorming session. We have lots to aay. Especially T. We were talking non-stop at 1000 words per minute. Shirley looked bewildered and overwhelemed most of the time. Shirley’s got lots to do.
With Tim? Nah! I won’t even whisper to him in a cinema. I’ll watch the show. And I am not the F&T (feely-touchy) type either. Not with him anyway.
“Talking loudly in a library” is more apt. This is why we need everyone to contribute more ideas here. Keeps the engine running hot. Stop us from slipping into a senile babble.
Good morning KT.
The $500K can be soley from CPF. For member who is 55 after 1st July 2007, the Minimum Sum Scheme is $99,600. The rest will have to be taken under the Minimum Sum Plus Scheme. It can also be a combination of CPF, Cash and SRS. SRS is only available to members who are employed or self employed.
You can visit the following website for more information:
1) http://www.income.com.sg
Click on “Quick Access”
Click on “All Products”
Go to “For Retirees”
Click on “Classic Annuity/Guaranteed Life Annuity
2) http://www.iras.gov.sg
Click on Individual Income Tax
Click on Salaried Employee
Click on Supplementary Retirement Scheme
The Supplementary Retirement Scheme allows a member to claim tax relief on the contribution made. The maximum amount of contribution for this year is $11,475.
A good Advisor will have to be thorough in accessing one’s financial position and objectives. You may appreciate that Advisors are like doctors, he needs input to analyst before he is able to make any recommendation. However, there is a simplier way and that is to ask for product advise which in this case is “Annuity” – how much do I have to put in to get $XXXXXX/month. Make it known to the Advisor that you are not interested in anything else.
You should not be worried or concerned. It’s your money and you are always over and above the Advisor. You need not have to go along with him if you do not agree with his recommendation/product.
KT, count yrself lucky that I didnt tip you yesterday…..semua mati, all my $350……..
Of cos you bet outsiders to win big with small money every day, not S$1m to eke out $3k every 30 days.
Heeee, no way I go watch movie with you…..what can we do other than watching and not moving?
Lily, I wished I cd agree with you but I cant.
A word becomes taboo if it’s mis-used or abusedgiven the context where it appears.
Religion is considered taboo here if someone starts, say, to preach but I think you wd get angry ahead of me if the word “god” is considered taboo becos someone exclaims “Oh my God….”.
Likewise, if “sex” by itself is taboo, then you hv a problem asking for the sex (or gender) in making a booking such as for a trip.
Politics is out too so how can you ever quote President’s famous “Ask not what the country can do for you but what you can do for the country”.
See, no word is taboo per se and even abu & his friend baboo agree on that. So your “no tabooed words are being allowed for whatever reason” is more a manifestation of a roller pin habit than wanting to be fair.
The motive to use a specific word certainly matters, and matters a lot.
BTW, since I hv outright rejected KT for a date at the cinema, you want to fill the seat next to me? Heeeee, not a taboo show; neither has a taboo word in its title. Die Hard 4 only tells us that it’s hard to die.
Ai mai?
Tim,
Why like that?
$315 from $235 is 130% return in 12 hours. At this rate all I have to is net wager of $10,000 (win some, lose some but net result) once a week to pull $1.28 mio per year. At $100K per month pocket money, life can really be a ball.
And now,…..HOW !? ……
Tim,
You made a grievious semiological error. You forgot the “4” in “Die Hard 4”.
DH4 does not mean “hard to die”.
Surely the first interpretation must be the literal taken whole.
“Die, die, die, die also must be HARD”
That’s why you need the Carrot V, C boosters.
Hee hee
Ronald Lim
“Only 50% of the withdrawals at retirement are taxable.” under SRS
What is the income tax and estate duty liability position for annuities in general.
Thanks
KT, any accountant wd hv protested & defied all taboos to tell you that the return isnt 130% – it’s 30% (34% to be precise) altho 130% goes back into yr pocket, and then you return home happily.
Yes, i cant stress enough that in any high gain wager it also means high risk. On the whole, I am still up, and that makes me happy to return for more.
Die Hard 4 or Dye (her) Heart 4 (love)……..whichever, it’s still getting good company for 2 hours for less than $20, a steal.
Tim,
Can you explain the exact wager. If you bet $235 and get paid an extra $80 payout what is the odds involved. Is it 1 out of 3 outcomes eg win, lose and draw?
If so, this is not too bad. You’re paid 34% for a 33.3333% probability.
Hi KT.
Withdrawals under SRS from age 62 for Sporean and SPR are taxable. However, withdrawal can be deferred or spread over ten years to reduce
tax liability.
The lumpsum payout on the Annuitant’s death to his Nominee is taxable.
Dear Ronald,
Does this mean that investment in financials like equities, forex and derivatives (<$600K estate exempt) and properties (<$9 million estate exempt) is more efficient from an estate duty point of view? Of course, the best is a zero sum game. Balance Work and Wealth with lots of Party and Play. Make sure you enjoy yourself silly before going. Try to take everything with you. "... somewhere in the darkness the gambler, he broke even" Kenny Roger's Gambler ends with this advice "And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep." Good Night....