A number of members have asked if SilverHairsClub is registered under the Registra of Societies. Some see the registration as compliance with Singapore society laws, while others see the advantage of being recognised as an official group by corporations and government organisations. Some members also feel SilverHairsClub should be a company, in view of its potential business opportunities.
When the idea was first mooted to find a platform for SilverHairs to meet new friends, I had not had any thought of registering the SilverHairsClub. Considering retirement as an important issue in our region, I had thought we could just meet up at some cafes, and chat, share about our future plans so that we would not be lonely and that we can live meaningful SilverHairs years.
Those who feel strongly about having SilverHairsClub registered have requested that we should have a forum on this issue. so, I am opening this topic for discussion. Please share your thoughts. We shall close and review the feedback on 31 Dec 2006.
Some info on registering as a club/society: http://www.mha.gov.sg/ecitizen/roses/images/docs/guide-newReg.pdf
Terence Seah
The question is not whether you should organize formally but when and how.
SHC has far past the stage where a few friends meet regularly for a cup of kopi. SHC have activities involving representation, solicitation, invitation to treat, collection of funds and deem contract between members of the public. (Since SHC is not a registered party, we are all members of the public. If anything goes wrong, not only the direct organiser of the specific activity but many other persons involved in the general organisation of SHC could be held fully liable in their own personal capacity.
Bear in mind –
“The Public Entertainments and Meetings Act 1959 could be used to detain and charge those who speak or assemble in public without license. Police permit is required for all assemblies of five or more people. Participation in peaceful assembly [without the required license] can result in charges of illegal assembly or public entertainment without license.”
Do you qualify? You say, leh.
Arguably, the Societies Act was promulgated first to deal with secret societies and generally to give orderliness to the loose associations of people, some with insidious motives, and later to deal with the spawning of tontines.
Presently, the SA is tighter than tight as it deems any association of 10 or more persons as a society which if unregistered, is an unlawful society (unless it’s wholly orgainsed outside spore & does not carry on activity here). Whoever manages the unlawful society is punishable with a jail term not exceeding 5 years (sorry, Terence you’re a potential candidate for curry rice)and any collection of money from its “members” also subjects the collector to the same penalty. Likewise, for persons who allow their premises to be used for the gathering.
Often, the Registrar of Societies wont hv the time or resources to bother with people who gather in large numbers regularly so long as there’s no complaint.
However, if we were to see SHC flourish as an authentic body, recognised and with the power to contract but devoid of sleepless nites worrying whether someone inside or outside SHC will squeal, it’s timely that SHC be registered as a society. Not least, with membership collections (a token, if you like), Terence and his selfless & dedcated crew wont hv to fork out from their pockets for the activities organised (thank you all, folks!).
Until such time we are ready to go real big, think suffice for now that we are registered as a society.
tim
As usual, KT Wong has spoken with a strong legal understanding and trying to keep us on the ‘right side of the law’ when engaging in public-type activities in the “LKY country”. I am standing right behind him. Over to the others.
I believe majority if not all are thankful for this platform and to the founders esp Terence who has been very positive and encouraging in all aspects of SHC.
Some of us had raised this issue a couple of months ago. SHC has grown. For the peace of mind for the founders as well as organisers of events, it is time to register SHC as a legal society.
Both KT & Tim(apparently reads law) had stated the consequences: gathering of 5 or more are deemed as unlawful, participants could be rounded up for questioning!
If all is well, fine, no problem but it is the “what ifs” something happens. It is not being conservative but being wise… before it is too late!
Please keep your comments coming. And, if you have suggestions, please share. And, any thoughts on whether SilverHairsClub should be a society, club or company?
Terence Seah
Terence
I am not against some form of official recognititon, it may be necessary. If this becomes a for profit organization, who gets to keep the profits (obviously the founders will have shares and who else?). My observations has always been that once money and material gains come into the picture, friendship goes out the window. The competitive and acquisitive spirit present in most humans will mean that there is constant bickering to see who stands to gain and stands to gain more. Some may think that since they are all in the original group so should get a part of the profits. Then the later groups will think that since they are all equal members so why should they also not get some of the profits. Who will decide how to distribute the profits, if any. Organize if we must but only as a non-profit organization. Collect sufficient membership dues just to keep the club running (renting of physical spaces, snacks, coffee and tea, etc) and keep this in some sort of account open to scrutiny by members if required. It may be necessary to hire one person to help in overall organization but it is preferable to do everything on a volunteer basis. This is suppose to be a retiree or for people close to retirement so volunteering our time should not be a probblem. I think at the moment things look rosy because money has not come into the picture and there is good camaraderie. This is because we are doing things we want to do without thinking about profit.
Just my two cents worth.
sb
A gathering of 10 or more persons to pursue a common interest or activity is deemed a society, and an unlawful one if it’s not registered with the ROS. The onus is on the gathering to prove otherwise, which, as the Societies Act is presently worded, is a lost cause from the word go.
A gathering of 5 or more is illegal only if there’s criminal intent (which makes sense otherwise families & friends cant go on picnics), and the onus is on the prosecution to prove the intent.
A club is also registered under the SA as there’s no Clubs Act (I believe the only club which exists outside the SA is the Spore Turf Club which comes under the Spore Totalisator Board).
A society is a non-profit organisation and if I understand it correctly, is not allowed to incorporate a company under its name.
On the other hand, members of a company are usually shareholdres (atlho uncommonly, a company can hv its liability limited by guaranty). A private limited cannot have more than 50 members with restrictions on the transferability of its shares.
Frankly, if the essence and principal objective of SHC is for seniors to meet regularly for some elderly fun and exchange of ideas, then a society (or club) appeals. Until such time when, ensuing from discussions some concrete business plans come to fruition, we can dissolve the club to incorporate a company. Heeeee, imagine shareholders of SH Limited gather to sing the itchy teeny weeny polka dot song, play mahjong or has, in its memorandum of association, botanical gdn walking and east coast park cycling as its principal objectives.
Tim
If SHC does become a society then obviously it must be non-profit oriented. But if on the other hand, the members fees are insufficient to cover all the expanding activities (snacks & drinks are getting expensive), then invariably the task of fund raising comes into the picture. And this task would require someone with the finesse of a ‘gentle beggar’ as well as the real dedication to work on a non paid basis. Think its easy to find someone to fit this hat? However, Terence has time & again mentioned about the GO fund as something we may be able to tap into -provided some beings sit down to draw up some plans to engage the active elderly -to teach them dialects or what have you to justify such funding. Just like some have said, if the whole purpose is just to gather together, have some fun, exercises, fellowship etc then we should leave the big PROFIT & MONEY out of the equation! gary
Unless you have the full service Changi resort with free curry rice as part of your retirement village plan, you would want to structure SHC as a society asap.
There is nothing a society cannot do compared to a company. Fact is the NPOs (Non-Profit Ogres … oops, hee hee) are some of the most consistent obscenely profitable organisations around. NPOs also own some of the largest tracts of choicest prime real estate in Spore. Remember kidneys ? It is the supposedly profit-making companies that are usually end up losing their pants.
It is rumoured that we rename NPOs to IPCs (Institutions of Public Character aka Indecently Profitable Companies) in order to avoid murdering the English language.
Look at the annual reports of some of the more famous NPOs. Gentle beggars they are not. Finding a CEO takes time only because there is a queue of applicants ringing round the world applying for the tax free million dollar+++ pa job. It all boils down to how you position, manage and market the NPO.
Seriously, if we have to do it, then let’s do it right. Running a shoe string society requires no less effort than running a successful one. In fact, most people will find begging for funds in the streets a tad tedious compared to rushing through your eighteen hole charity golf in order to deliver your charity dinner speech.
From the discussions so far, there is consensus SHC has to be registered to avoid infringing the law purely on technical grounds. Keep the M&A as simple as possible whether as society, club or limited liability company.
The risk of claims on organisers for losses or injuries suffered during SHC’s activities can be alleviated by requiring participants to be club members and to assume their own risk. We cannot protect ourselves against every imaginable liability.
What counts most in determining if there is a risk of infringing the laws ,I think is the nature of the club’s objectives and the activities organized to attain these objectives. All would agree that the club’s aim of engaging seniors in useful and meaningful activities is commendable. The out of bounds area -no religion, no politics, no sex, etc…,should suffice to underscore the non controversial nature of the club.
Suggested by some SHCs that no money be collected or solicited from members or the public, I think that should eliminate a lot of custodian responsibility and paperwork.
I believe Terence & founder members had been bearing the costs so far in maintaining the website. Perhaps when the website is well visited, he could recover some of the costs from advertising revenue!
Thoughts for the Day,
Imagine if I were to host a Birthday Party and I have invited my friends and relatives who in turn has brought some of their friends to my Party….
Questions :
Have I infringe the law by not pre-informing them (Authority) of my Birthday Party?
Am I liable to be penalise for not reporting to the authority of the place and the numbers of guess coming to attend this auspicious occassion?
Do I have the right to organise such a function since it’s my personal and auspicious day?
In the events of any fight or disputes amongst the guess, am I accountable?
If more than 5 are gathered without permit, the law takes a serious view on this matter?…… Gee my gathering with friends and relatives would then be a constraints in my everyday live.
The Authority that approve such social clubs, are they really concern about the activities that is taking place and the members’ performances and contributions? Or is it just another area of revenue?
Well, as the saying goes ” You can do anything you like but don’t get caught ” …. So far I believe there is no complaint to the Authority with regards to our gatherings but then again we need to safe guards the “Ifs” …..
Terence, we all know deep in our hearts your mere intention is to provide the platform for the Silver Hairs – a place to meet and share our remainding times with those who truely value their friendship, interests / Hobbies and companionship as we continue to live till we part. Sad to say that we are living in an era of fears… fear of infringing the law.
I believe there may be a better way out by not violating the law. Let’s hear from our members’ point of view. Perhaps we should also gather some comments from the Authority with regards to this non-profitable organisation.
Cheers.
Patrick Yeo
I worked in the newspaper media for 20 years, and am conscious of being on the right side of the law.
When SilverHairsClub was conceived, the ideas was to “keep it simple”. So, we have basic rules like no politics, sex, racial, religion, direct selling and MLM”. And, must be 45 and over. Thought that was good enough.
We have only one objective, and that is “To provide a platform for SilverHairs to meet new and more friends”.
We do not collect membership fees. For social gatherings, we meet in cafes, and pay for our own drinks. And, we enjoy each other’s company. For many SilverHairs, I see friendship and social support growing.
I hope to see the SilverHairsClub provide more opportunities for SilverHairs to interact, without too many other rules.
Terence Seah
Hi All
I do agreed with everybody comments/feedback to be on the safe side. Let’s register our group just like the RC where they can meet and gather events without hesitation.
From Lynn Liem:
Actually if you dun wish to spend money on registering yr club and having to pay yearly expenses on audits and etc, you can actually TAG on to an RC of your choice (make sure its a flexible RC) and life is a breeeze henceforth.
Even though we are considered under the umbrella of the Bishan East RC, they dun interfere with our running of the club at all and at times even generous enough to sponsor us for certain events. We have our own comm members (all voluntary) to do all the running and the planning and the groundwork.
Just my 2 cents worth of comments re: yr club registration.
Lynn Marissa Liem :)
A “society” is defined to include “any club, company, partnership or association of 10 or more persons, whatever its nature or object”. In there lies a generic reference which envisages a gathering of regulars to pursue certain common activities or objectives.
Thankfully, Patrick or Timothy is rational enough not to celebrate birthdays every alternate month, as much as folks gather to celebrate xmas, divali or even play the weekly mahjong (which would also hv become “unlawful assemblies” under Section 141 of the Penal Code). Obviously, the polis do exercise its discretion with a rich dosage of common sense. So we remain unmolested to enjoy our auspicious day but if the toilet bowl breaks while a guest is sitting on it, then we might be sued under occupiers’ liability.
Revenue is collected by the ROS for registering societies but the amt probably pales in comparison with what rings the till in parking summonses. Rather, I believe the law seeks a grasp on “gatherings”, to act swiftly when the gathering poses as a “threat” – punishes it if it’s unregistered; de-registers it (and so makes it unlawful)if it is regd
I have absolutely no fear in attending SHC events, unperturbed by any prospect of legal frills or thrills.
In our heydays, we have helped build the nation. Now we meet in SHC to make more friends to enjoy that walk down memory lane. If we continue to focuss on the SHC objectives and ideals, find time to organise activities so that we get to don our bikini (pronounce bi as in bike, ki as in kite and ni as in nite)I dont think anyone wants to bother with us however much and intense we seek fun.
Hi Terence and all,
I think we have to keep the main objectives of SHC, intact as much as possible without rushing into being a registered society. Firstly, there is no initial joining fees, no monthly fees, and you only pay what you need to pay, as in your own daily meals. This is the only one club i know that is doing this, and i find this concept very refreshing and totally without any pressure.
With this concept, no one can make demands, complaints or pressure on anyone in the club as it is free and you participate on your own free will and you are responsible for yourself. In this day and age ( and at our age) this current practice of the SHC should be kept and preserved for as long as we can. If we want to be bothered with a club then many of us can just join any RC club, or social club and you can see the different attitudes of the members. Peoples attitude change just because they are paying members or become committee members, the way they behave become totally different. I belong to such clubs and i know the difference, and i find SHC’s free, easy, casual and the ‘simple you don’t pay anything so you appreciate what ever is available spirit most enjoyable’. Let us don’t turn it into another club, where the ugly Singaporean behaviour start to creep in,without first trying to know how to appreciate and value what we presently have here in SHC. Just travel in the MRTs, buses and at any hawker centers you can already see such urban warriors in action fighting for what they feel is theirs because they pay the same fare as you.
I totally agree with Ronald Wi. His comments are well thought out and downright ‘when the rubber hits the road’. My experience was with charities. There are usually donors and sponsors and people just turn up for events because food/drinks are F.O.C. But when it comes to ‘work’ they may agree but will ‘chicken out’. These are the ‘ugly ones’ (some even living in condos) as we well know. SHC’s style of ‘going dutch’ & giving a free rein is more meaningful and refreshing. Just like this coming talent-time you pay for joining the event & its more ‘cool’. Just keep it that way and hopefully when its necessary to ‘lead’ in some way, people would be willing to follow ….
Hi Terence & All,
All your comments stands.
Can we have the sister Lynn Liem to explore further on the Tag with RC, does it mean all RC or only certain Rc?
it’s something new and look feesible away from the registering.
I stand by all to register if necessary.
Regards
Gibson Tan
Hi Gibson and Lynn,
We would review the issue of registering the club at the end of 2006. Let’s wait for the comments to come in.
Meantime, I prefer to leave the suggestion of tagging onto a RC to both Gibson and Lynn. Let us know your thoughts here, so that other members can hear from you.
Terence Seah
Above comments are well thought and all are for the good of SHClub.
hmmm… SHC Lynn suggestion on tagging with RC would be perfect should it feasible.
I am also very happy with all that is going on in SHC, F&E. However, there are factors to contemplate:
1) responses for SHC activities are well supported. At times, when we are a known ‘body’, ‘somebody’ it facilitates negotiation on price…etc
2) whether, it is a free or paid for activity, there are always some display of ‘self-rights’, things like ‘common sense’, we are ‘adults’, these are just Expectations which might also go out of the windows ;) hahhaha
and Yes, we cant be ‘too careful’ just wanna be right with Singapore Law! and we continue to enjoy in peace. yeh!
No matter what will be the decision, three cheers to the founder!
Dear All
To register or not to register that is the question.
I feel that if we see the SHC to continue organising activities for the seniors for many years to come, then it will be better that we formalise the Club by registering it.
But if we are not sure whether the Club may fizzle out in a couple of years, then we should look at alternatives.
One of these alternatives is to tag along under an existing Community Club. That means SHC will become an activity within that particular Community Club. And the Chairman of that Community Club will be invited to be patron of SHC.
The other question is if we register SHC, what will be its relationship be with SAGE – the Singapore Action Group for Elders. SAGE is also organising activities including counselling for senior citizens.
These are some of things we need to consider.
Hi Kia Chew,
Your suggestion to link with a community club or to SAGE will be considered. Please give us an idea how this link can be established and what is the process?
Meantime, please continue to join us at a few activities and our SilverHairsClub forum.
Terence
Hi Terence
SHC objectives may be somewhat similar to SAGE. Therefore, I am not sure whether SAGE will welcome SHC to be set up and be registered as a Club for senior citizens. SHC is essentially a Club run by volunteers. SAGE may therefore suggest that all SHC activities be organised under SAGE by the volunteers without a separate registration for SHC. The only way to find out is to speak to SAGE.
For SHC to be tagged under a Community Club, we need to identify a Community Club whose management does not mind SHC to organise activities under their Club. This means SHC can use that particular Club’s premises for events and functions (with prior approval on each occasion)free of charge. All fees, charges collected by SHC will be managed by the Community Club under their accounts.
Perhaps some existing SHC members may have strong links with some Community Clubs. We can consider one of these Clubs to approach on the tagging proposal.
The Community Club that agrees to this arrangement may be looked upon as an “enlightened” Community Club. It will be recognised as the first Club to address current concerns of an ageing population and to organise activities for the senior citizens in their Community Club.
Kia Chew
Hi Folks,
Ploughing through the blog site, one can see the bottom up grass root participation and sense the spontaneity in responses. There is a time and place to formalise SHC into a registered organisation and let it run for a couple of years more.
So long as we keep the taboos out, we will not run foul of the law even with a convival gathering. Terence and the pioneering Founders, thank you for your informal leadership that draws many to participate and emulate you in the area that one is confident in.
Edwin